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Thread: Kenjutsu dojo

  1. #31
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    But you spoke of Sugino-ha and that is not true.

  2. #32
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    Sugawara Sensei is a good guy and you could do a lot worse than finding your way into his organization, particularly if they are your only geographical option for an extended period of time.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Mason View Post
    There are several Shinkendo dojo in the Atlanta area. For a complete dojo listing, go to www.shinkendo.com and use the link for authorized branch dojos.
    He did ask for "Kenjutsu". Not a shinkendo promo.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyaku View Post
    He did ask for "Kenjutsu". Not a shinkendo promo.
    In the initial post (in 2005) didn't ask specifically for koryu kenjutsu, nor for any particular system at all; he just asked for kenjutsu in the Atlanta area, and the link provided by Mr. Mason (also in 2005) with the instruction to check the dojo listing page seems an appropriate response to the question.

    Do you not think Shinkendo is kenjutsu?
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    Do you not think Shinkendo is kenjutsu?
    We all know that Shinkendo is the Japanese martial art created in 1990 by Obata Toshishiro, with the ambition to make one comprehensive form of Japanese swordsmanship.

    Although aspects of kenjutsu are incorporated into Shinkendo (as Tachiuchi), I would not go as far as to consider Shinkendo as kenjutsu.

    May-be shinkendo people will find kenjutsu too narrow to describe what they do and kenjutsu people will find shinkendo not specific enough to be called kenjutsu.
    Guy Buyens
    Hontai Yoshin Ryu (本體楊心流)
    BELGIAN BRANCH http://www.hontaiyoshinryu.be/

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Buyens View Post
    Although aspects of kenjutsu are incorporated into Shinkendo (as Tachiuchi), I would not go as far as to consider Shinkendo as kenjutsu.
    Can you give an example, then, of what you would consider to be kenjutsu? (Remembering the original question being about a "kenjutsu dojo.")
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    Can you give an example, then, of what you would consider to be kenjutsu? (Remembering the original question being about a "kenjutsu dojo.")
    OK I give it a try but first of all I want to be very cautious with “good” or “bad” because who am I to judge. Also good or bad is too personal (unless very obvious). Right or wrong is something we can look into. People who claim false things are to be addressed (this can be politely because they might even not do it intentionally). This is certainly not the case with Shinkendo. They state clearly what they are:”Shinkendo is a modern art, and as such it is able to break down the walls between the different Ryuha and reincorporate their teachings into one comprehensive form”.

    Rather than becoming very semantic, I try to look at this very pragmatically.
    The question was indeed “Are there any kenjutsu dojos in or near Atlanta?” and not “Where can I learn swordmanship”.

    This brings us back to what is kenjutsu?

    I would imagine that for someone who is looking for kenjutsu at this forum it is safe to assume that he or she is looking for the most widely accepted perception of the art, that involves confrontations when both participants already have their blades drawn. I know this is too narrow but in order to classify schools we have to take assumptions. Another assumption could indeed be that kenjutsu is Japanese swordmanship that predates 1868, but I didn’t make that assumption when I wrote my comment.

    When I would ask at this forum where to practice kenjutsu, I would like to be guided to a dojo where the main activity is kenjutsu. Not where some kenjutsu (or kenjutsu like activity) is only a small part of what the dojo has to offer to its students.

    From what I know, Shinkendo (and again I don’t go into a discussion about bad or good) has partnered training (tachiuchi) but also comes over as a system with a lot of emphasis on batto and tameshigiri (understandable seen the strong link with Toyama ryu ).

    Let me put it differently, in Hontai Yoshin Ryu, the art I am most acquainted with, there are some kenjutsu exercises that we do, but I would not recommend us as a kenjutsu school. In contrast, although Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu definitely has jujutsu forms, I don’t have to be an expert in it to assume it is less suitable for someone who wants to begin jujutsu because he will only get access at it at a very advanced level. Ono ha Itto Ryu, another art I know a little better, is definitely a kenjutsu school but the list is large. However when forced to give examples I do tend to restrict them to koryu I directly (i.e. at least have some friends who train in them) or indirectly know (i.e. have seen at enbu or have sufficiently read about) but this is biased.

    Of course we can go much further and see kenjutsu as “techniques of the sword” in the largest sense (which is an option when translated literally) but then all dojo that have a sword that is not only on display can be recommended.
    Guy Buyens
    Hontai Yoshin Ryu (本體楊心流)
    BELGIAN BRANCH http://www.hontaiyoshinryu.be/

  8. #38
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    If ya'll are looking to get into semantics, here is a brain twister for you - some koryu "kenjutsu" arts don't even like to be referred to as "kenjutsu"!



    As far as Japanese swordsmanship, or even, Japanese-style swordsmanship goes, to my way of thinking the only critical question is whether it is koryu or gendai. For me the Japanese word for the style/method of using the sword is not based on whether an art is koryu or not. But others may think differently...
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Buyens View Post
    ...This brings us back to what is kenjutsu? ...I would imagine that for someone who is looking for kenjutsu at this forum it is safe to assume that he or she is looking for the most widely accepted perception of the art, that involves confrontations when both participants already have their blades drawn. I know this is too narrow but in order to classify schools we have to take assumptions. ...Of course we can go much further and see kenjutsu as “techniques of the sword” in the largest sense (which is an option when translated literally) but then all dojo that have a sword that is not only on display can be recommended.
    I don't think "all dojo that have a sword that is not only on display can be recommended." There are quite clearly a large number of pretenders to the name "kenjutsu" out there, many of whom have been discussed on this very forum.

    I do agree, though, that "we can go much further and see kenjutsu as 'techniques of the sword' in the largest sense" when the person asking the question has said "I'm not familiar with martial arts, this will be my first."
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    I don't think "all dojo that have a sword that is not only on display can be recommended." There are quite clearly a large number of pretenders to the name "kenjutsu" out there, many of whom have been discussed on this very forum.

    I do agree, though, that "we can go much further and see kenjutsu as 'techniques of the sword' in the largest sense" when the person asking the question has said "I'm not familiar with martial arts, this will be my first."
    This sounds very reasonable.

    I hope I don’t come over as cynical or arrogant but I tend to spend more time on this forum when like now, I suffer from an injury (not too long anymore, I hope), frustrated not to train.
    Guy Buyens
    Hontai Yoshin Ryu (本體楊心流)
    BELGIAN BRANCH http://www.hontaiyoshinryu.be/

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Buyens View Post
    This sounds very reasonable.

    I hope I don’t come over as cynical or arrogant but I tend to spend more time on this forum when like now, I suffer from an injury (not too long anymore, I hope), frustrated not to train.
    Hello Mr Buyens,

    I can assure you that your participation in the E-Budo forums is noted and appreciated -- and I hope it does not stop when you have recovered from your injury and have started training again.

    Best wishes,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

  12. #42
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    Mr Obata (now 66/67) worked for Hayashi Kunishiro at Wakakoma Pro the Japanese tateshi company that does fight arrangements for TV and movies. They are all very competant in more than one form of Budo, Chinese Art etc. They collect ryuha but have the opportunity to practice all day and every day. Doing the fight work for and appearing in Ninja Turtles, then forming your own group as Kaiso does not usually qualify as kenjutsu/kobudo.

    P.S Hayashi Sensei did the work in Shogun Assassin. One of my favorites!
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyaku View Post
    ...Doing the fight work for and appearing in Ninja Turtles, then forming your own group as Kaiso does not usually qualify as kenjutsu/kobudo.
    But what about being a senior student of Nakamura Taizaburo? Toyama-ryu and Nakamura-ryu are not "kenjutsu" in the strictest sense, but in the " 'techniques of the sword' in the largest sense" it goes far beyond "fight arrangements for TV and movies," wouldn't you say?
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    But what about being a senior student of Nakamura Taizaburo? Toyama-ryu and Nakamura-ryu are not "kenjutsu" in the strictest sense, but in the " 'techniques of the sword' in the largest sense" it goes far beyond "fight arrangements for TV and movies," wouldn't you say?
    Batto Jutsu? Don't get me wrong, as I said very experienced people. One pushed me into second place in batto jutsu taikai.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  15. #45
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    I think Guy Buyens', Nathan Scott's, and Brian Owens' comments pretty well describe what is (and is not) kenjutsu. Shinkendo is not kenjutsu, though it has incorporated elements from a number of kenjutsu ryu into its principles and, perhaps, its technical curriculum. I also think that the comment about whether an art is koryu (which in my view means it existed prior to the Sword Abolishment Act of 1876) or not is another critical factor when it comes to defining kenjutsu. Modern arts may (or may not) use the word to describe the things they do -- Japanese is a rather vague language, shades of grey rather than black and white -- but I very much doubt that any of the modern systems have quite the depth or breadth of the schools that were created by bushi, for bushi, in a time when success meant life and failure meant death. That brings an entirely different dimension into the discussion.

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