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Thread: Does Gotente, Suide or Uchinade still exist?

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    Default Does Gotente, Suide or Uchinade still exist?

    I was wondering on the opinions of the members here if true "Old Style" Okinawa fighting arts still exist in thier original form. Palace Hand, Ansestor Hand, or Okinawa Hand are among the names of these systems. Would anyone be interested in knowing about these or is it just old news? I practice a style that still uses the old kata but have found nothing more. The Motobu Gotente taught today is basically Karate by a different name, IMHO. It has Pinan Kata and everything else.

    Paul Hart
    http://allshorin.org
    The People formerly known as Paul Hart

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    You probably speak of Seidokan...of Shian Toma who was a student of Uehara...13th Soke of Motobu Udundi (Gotente). Motobu Chosei is the current Soke of the actual Udundi...it is alive and well. Motobu Udundi does not do the Pinans...There are plenty of videos out there featuring Uehara Seikichi Sensei that you can get an idea from.

    Overview of MOtobu Sensei's visit in July can be found here:

    www.kenkyukai.org

    Best

    Rob Rivers
    Rob Rivers

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    Yes, I do speak of Seidokan. I woder what is practiced in this Udundi system that you speak of. Is the curicculum available? I know that Matsumura, after learning the Palace Hand art went to China and learned the Shaolin arts. Upon his return he joined them together to make Uchinade, or Okinawa Hand. The Palace Hand art is a Minamoto art handed down by the Motobu lineage, or thus it was taught this way by my Sensei. Sensei also said that Uehara Seikichi Sensei only learned a small portion of the Motobu family art. He was acquainted with Choyu Motobu and this information was said to have come from the source. I know Motobu Choyu Sensei did do some forms like Huquan and Baihe. These forms I do not believe are now taught. I am sure we each change our art to fit us and learn what we can from those who agree to allow us to gain knowledge from them.

    If you are curious, my Sensei was Hanashiro Shinyei, who studied under Chosho (not Choshin) Chibana who in turn studied under Sokon Matsumura. He passed away earlier this year at the age of 99.
    The People formerly known as Paul Hart

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    Ooops, after reading my last post I got the idea that I was infering that Uehara Seikichi Sensei didn't know what he was doing. I did not mean that at all. I have been called to the carpet by a senior about this and I apologize. I meant that Motobu was said to have kept some of the art among family only and I wonder what if anything may have been left behind. As I said, I know some Kata were practiced that are not practiced anymore but this is second hand knowledge. I have a video of Uehara Seikichi Sensei that is around 3 hours long, it is a home made video of his demo at the World Tourney in Oki as well as his class over a few weeks. He was a very skilled Martial Artist.
    The People formerly known as Paul Hart

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    Suidi stil exists, but with a different name and slightly altered technique. It's the karate from Hohan Soken's lineage.

    Bryan L. Cyr

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    Hohan Soken said in an interview that the Karate he taught was not the Karate of Bushi Matsumura. Also, with the three Naihanchi and the Pinan it would lead me to believe that it was a form of Itosu based Karate, not the Gotente of Matsumura Sokon. I have a copy of this interview recorded and he does say this. I always wondered why Matsumura Seito didn't look more like Motobu Ryu Udundi. Any explanation of this?
    The People formerly known as Paul Hart

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Hart
    Hohan Soken said in an interview that the Karate he taught was not the Karate of Bushi Matsumura. Also, with the three Naihanchi and the Pinan it would lead me to believe that it was a form of Itosu based Karate, not the Gotente of Matsumura Sokon. I have a copy of this interview recorded and he does say this. I always wondered why Matsumura Seito didn't look more like Motobu Ryu Udundi. Any explanation of this?
    Being able to read is good, but comprehending the words in text is a good thing. You need to reread this interview and get your facts straight.
    Here's the interview just for you-

    http://www.renbukan.timsdomain.com/hohan.htm

    Nabe was given the "hands" of the Matsumura system. Do you know what that term means?

    First the Uehara dis now this. You need to brush up on your facts. Btw who is your teacher and who taught him? I can't find any reference to them anywhere except on your site. People wnat to pump you and your lone site up but they don't know any better either. Who the heck are you?

    Look go find a real and qualified Matsumura Orthodox teacher and then claim you do Matsumura karate. You do Matsumura-HA karate, which encompasses everything from the Shorin styles to TKD and TSD. As for Suidi (Shuri Te), Hohan Soken's karate had less Tomari Te influence than the other Shorin Ryuha and it is considered by its practitioners and other Shorin stylists to be the purest form of Shuri Te out there. A lot of our ti is excatly like Gotente, of course with Matsumura Sokon's other experience mixed in. Rather than a royal family self-protection art it a ROYAL GUARD self-preservation system. You have a lot to learn about the Okinawan arts, especially Machimura's family system. So yes Suidi is alive and well albeit in a slightly modified form.

    Again your fighting guard is reversed. Not that it matters, but the real Matsumura Seito styles use the spare block in the rear. It's our signature fighting guard.

    Bryan L. Cyr

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    Is this the same Cyr that taught Goju to Debbie Hamilton. The same guy who claims to have learned his Goju from Richard Kim. The system I do is NOT Matsumura Seito! Never has been. I find no need to prove myself to individuals like yourself. I actually have a cd of this interview from Charles Garrett. Hohan soken is the one talking. Not a print out. LOL.

    Maybe since I know so little you could answer me this, where is Nabe Matsumura buried?

    Not all Teachers post internet sites or try to become famous. I believe Oyata said that in Okinawa there are a number of Karate Masters that do not desire recognition. Before he mentioned his teachers they were unknown.

    If you cannot find any information on me that may be because the people I know do not wish to interact with you. If you know so very much please teach me from your knowledge, I am always available.

    Maybe we should agree to disagree on this part of Matsumura Seito history. Thats about it for me.
    The People formerly known as Paul Hart

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Hart
    Is this the same Cyr that taught Goju to Debbie Hamilton. The same guy who claims to have learned his Goju from Richard Kim. The system I do is NOT Matsumura Seito! Never has been. I find no need to prove myself to individuals like yourself. I actually have a cd of this interview from Charles Garrett. Hohan soken is the one talking. Not a print out. LOL.
    Goju from Richard Kim? That makes zero sense. Kim didn't even do real Shorin. I have always done Shorin Ryu, Shorinkan as a teen and Matsumura Seito under Ron Lindsey as an adult. I do real Okinawan Shorin Ryu. I don't know who this other Cyr guy is, but I'm betting he is more of a real karate guy than you. You don't have to tell me that you don't do real Matsumura karate. I already knew that from your posts on other sites and from your website.

    So let's forget about Mr. Garrett's video for a minute and focus on a true credible karate-ka's interview with Soken before senility had completely set in. Ernest Estrada's interview tells it all, so read and learn. Charles Garrett? Hahahahahaha! Please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Hart
    Maybe since I know so little you could answer me this, where is Nabe Matsumura buried?
    Where is Chosho Chibana buried? Ex-friggin'-zactly! Ever hear of the 2nd WW? The battle for Okinawa and the bombardment that ensued destroyed a lot. Regardless of the history the consensus amongst most Okinawan masters was that Soken Hohan was a very real and good Shuri Te stylist. What info or corraborated evidence regarding Chosho or your immediate sensei can you offer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Hart
    Not all Teachers post internet sites or try to become famous. I believe Oyata said that in Okinawa there are a number of Karate Masters that do not desire recognition. Before he mentioned his teachers they were unknown.

    If you cannot find any information on me that may be because the people I know do not wish to interact with you. If you know so very much please teach me from your knowledge, I am always available.

    Maybe we should agree to disagree on this part of Matsumura Seito history. Thats about it for me.
    You are absolutely wrong about Oyata's teachers and peers. Sensei Lindsey trained with some of them in his early years- 1960s-70s;(Odo in particular), and everyone who does real Okinawan karate has always known who Shigeru Nakamura was. So what are you talking about?

    What is true is there is no info on either of your teachers that people can find. It's not like the web was invented last year, yet no one excpet for you has any info on either of these guys. You just popped out of the ether. If you quote Garrett as a credible Matsumura karate source then you are very misled and uninformed. I don't doubt you have a video where Soken said his karate was not his Grandfathers. It was after all his karate like Itosu's karate and ChoSHIN Chibana's was his not his teachers. The difference being that Soken tried to keep the original intent and technique learned from his uncle as true as is possible. Btw go to the S.M.O.K.A. site and see what Shinshii James Coffman has to say about Charles Garrett.

    What's up with this TOMA bandwagoneering that's become fashionable recently? I thought all TMAs sucked and MMAs and combat sport was where it's at?

    What I also find interesting is that everyone that posts on these sites who is considered credible is at a Shihan level, yet they don't have the intuition to recognize that the person they're talking to on one site has already spoken with them on another. How come a lowly Nidan like me can spot you fools but you ain't got a clue as to who I am or that I've refuted your crap before on other sites? I guess I am an idealist but my idea of the ideal (everyone having above average intelligence or greater) isn't ever gonna happen.

    Rokudan Paul Hart, huh? Right-o bro....

    Bryan L. Cyr, Nidan, Shuri Te KarateJutsu

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    Ah there is another Brian Cyr then. I was hoping. Thought you were this guy.http://www.mvmedia.com/nama/index.ph...=page&SubMenu=

    Brampton Academy of Martial Arts (AMA)
    Style: Japanese
    Sensei: Brian Cyr
    160 Main Street South (in Plaza)
    Brampton, Ontario
    (905) 450-9925
    Internet: ghocanin@istar.ca (Goksan Hocanin)

    But since you have enlightened me that you a one of Lindseys worshipers that explains it. I will not argue with you, period. If you want to prove something to me come meet me and prove it. I will not tell you you dont know anything as I have never met you. I will also not cut down others. I remember saying I got a copy of the actual voice recording of the interview so please, go somewhere else and do your Lindsey Karate. I dont know you and with you attitude I think that you need lots of work. This is over with as far as I am concerned. Good day.
    Last edited by Paul Hart; 18th December 2005 at 03:08.
    The People formerly known as Paul Hart

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    On Oyata I was speaking of Uhugusiku No Tan Mei and Wakinaguri. You probably still dont know who these people are.

    I guess real Matsumura would be a matter of opinion so I will not state mine.
    The People formerly known as Paul Hart

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    Sorry I got a little heated there. I have nothing agaist you and I know you do not know me. No problem, if you ever want to train a little or exchange information my home is open to you.
    The People formerly known as Paul Hart

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Hart
    ......Not all Teachers post internet sites or try to become famous. I believe Oyata said that in Okinawa there are a number of Karate Masters that do not desire recognition. Before he mentioned his teachers they were unknown.........
    Yes, he did say this but there were several people on Okinawa that knew Mr. Uhugusiku No Tan Mei and Wakinaguri. Both men died in the earl 50's.
    Uehara Seikichi is said to have known one of them.
    Last edited by RobertRousselot; 18th December 2005 at 04:24.
    [CENTER]Robert Rousselot

    [B][I]Yeah, I’m humble…..I’m just not obsequious--- me [/I][/B]
    [B][I]Human behavior flows from three main sources; desire, emotion, and knowledge --- Plato[/I][/B][/CENTER]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shook Ya'
    …………You are absolutely wrong about Oyata's teachers and peers. Sensei Lindsey trained with some of them in his early years- 1960s-70s;(Odo in particular), and everyone who does real Okinawan karate has always known who Shigeru Nakamura was. So what are you talking about?
    Go to this website and you can see who his teachers were.
    Enter---Taika Oyata-----Lineage.

    Mr. Oyata's website

    Basically only one of his teachers (Nakamura) was well known. 3 others were not.
    [CENTER]Robert Rousselot

    [B][I]Yeah, I’m humble…..I’m just not obsequious--- me [/I][/B]
    [B][I]Human behavior flows from three main sources; desire, emotion, and knowledge --- Plato[/I][/B][/CENTER]

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    Thank you Mr. Rousselot. I never trained with Taika Oyata but I did attend a birthday celebration and a seminar in Independence, MO for him where I got to meet him and some of his students. He is a very exceptional martial artist, IMHO. Thank you for your information.
    The People formerly known as Paul Hart

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