One style over another?

[risingsun]

I still don't understand how someone that trained 4 years in Tae Kwon Do can't even spell it right?
I'm going to google Kapakaweta since I haven't heard of it before..but is this supposed to be capoeira? I'm by no means an English professor but I would think that someone that has trained for years in a particular art could at least spell it right. It's also interesting to me that you put down crosstraining before and only mentioned your TKD..or I should say, TQD experience but now mention your kapakaweta, boxing, kickboxing, and judo experience.
I also admit that perhaps Kapakaweta is a real art that I haven't heard of before...I see new arts all the time on the baffling budo section on here that I have never heard of.
Now, I think that Goju Ryu is an effective art and can produce some very tough fighters but I also think that if you took 20 non-pro boxers, kickboxers, or judoka against 20 goju ryu practitiones(that never fought in a world championship or even nationals)..and that they all each studied for 5 years, were around the same age, sex(male vs. male, female vs. female) that the goju ryu practitioners would lose. I'm saying this for your education Margeaux, I know it will upset you but that's not my point in doing this. I would say the same about the style of karate-do that I study, shito ryu.
I work with a gentleman that trained in boxing for about 7 years in my area, in a gym that has produced many olympic boxers. Now this person isn't a world champion, never fought pro but he's no one that I would take lightly, he has over 40 amature boxing fights and never pursued boxing as a career option, just to stay in shape and have fun.
Boxing and kickboxing train in such a way that their training is solely for competition. You don't have many boxing and kickboxing practitioners that are in it just for the art of it...the workouts generally are much harder in most boxing gyms than the average karate-do dojo. I'm not saying that a goju ryu practitioner couldn't beat a boxer or a kickboxer, I'm 100% positive their are some that could but out of all the karateka yudansha that I personally know against all the pro kickboxers/thaiboxers, amature kickboxers/thaiboxers...Only one imo would stand a chance in a fight, maybe two.
The thing is, the potential for a great fighter is their in any karate style but most of us don't in reality train to be a "god hand". Many years ago my sensei somehow got me to think that boxing was greatly inferior to karate-do in terms of fighting. Wow, was I brainwashed.
I hope you continue your Goju ryu training and I hope you do compete in a knockdown tournament...I just don't want you to go into the competition unprepared and get hurt. This is a martial art you can train in your whole life, how many over 50 year olds do you see that are still training in Muay Thai? Hardly any.

edited to add this: I did a google and ask.com search on Kapakaweta and could find no results. so, is this capoeira? The Afro-Brazillian martial art? Or something else?

I should have put that I was exposed to other styles and not that I took part in them. My spelling is not the greatest and Iv'e already admitted to that. I will not argue with you anymore because you obviously think I'm an idiot as I think of you. Goju Ryu is my style and I will take up for it, not that it needs it. I am not the best fighter or the best speller, but I have many goals to work my way up to. Personaly I think your full of s**t and after this, no matter what you say, I will not respond to you.
-Margeaux

[powerof0ne]

You're a real sweetheart and a pillar to the Goju Ryu community. I know, I'm quite "full of sh" because I have actually competed in point tournaments, muay thai, and knockdown competition. You have so much knowledge with your point fighting conquests of wearing foam padded protection and headgear. Ossu! May the spirit of naha, shuri, and tomari te be with you!

[Budoka 34]

Practising with other instructors and in different systems will give you a broader perspective of the martial arts and that will help you understand your style all the more.

Antonio,

I couldn't agree more, as I am most definitely a member of this category.
My instructor has introduced me to several high level instructors over the years if for no other reason than to help me understand my own art.
However there are people that have no interest in developing beyond the kihon understanding of their own style.

I'm not saying I agree with this mind set, but it is definitely one that alot of students fall into.

If that is what they want, more power to them.

[powerof0ne]

Antonio,

I couldn't agree more, as I am most definitely a member of this category.
My instructor has introduced me to several high level instructors over the years if for no other reason than to help me understand my own art.
However there are people that have no interest in developing beyond the kihon understanding of their own style.

I'm not saying I agree with this mind set, but it is definitely one that alot of students fall into.

If that is what they want, more power to them.

I agree with this 100% unless someone plans in competing in a competition that is more benificial to other styles.
I'm just a kohai compared to some of you and really mean no disrespect, just to set the record straight. I just think it's foolish to enter a rear wheel drive muscle car in an offroad rally race or for a more classicaly trained karateka with hardly any if any exposure to leg kicks, knees, and neck kicks to enter a competition with these techniques allowed. I know, I'm really "full of sh", because I'm giving what I think is practical advice.
It's also painfully obvious that risingsun loves me and wants to have my kids I can see it now, we could have little kids that train in mai tai, tiquondo, cheeto ryu and make them into world champions. We would make Mabuni, Funakoshi, Ohtsuka, Kano, Ueshiba, Oyama, and even "the cat" proud!

[Budoka 34]

Brian,

unless someone plans in competing in a competition that is more benificial to other styles.

I agree.

When it comes to competition you have to train for the rules, regardless of style.
In a competition you'd better have an idea what the rules and standards are and be prepared to play by them.

[Brad Burklund]

I think it depends on the reason for study. Some stalwarts like what they do in a pure sense and that's absolutely fine...in fact I have no say in it, nor should I.

However, I fall into Antonio's camp when you look at utility and the expression of that utility. Exposure and understanding of other styles benefit you in your training, no matter what. However, is it karate at this point? Don't know, but think it can only give some benefits to have other experience....and can be an eye opener.

Regards,

Brad Burklund

[Stickman]

Now, I think that Goju Ryu is an effective art and can produce some very tough fighters but I also think that if you took 20 non-pro boxers, kickboxers, or judoka against 20 goju ryu practitiones(that never fought in a world championship or even nationals)..and that they all each studied for 5 years, were around the same age, sex(male vs. male, female vs. female) that the goju ryu practitioners would lose.

You know, I believer you're right. Especially if you limit a Goju Ryu practioner to the rules of these "sports". I think, however, that you have the wrong perspective if it came down to a real battle, sans rules. Goju Ryu, nor any karate, is meant to be utilized like boxing, no matter how much "sparring" you have seen in Karate Dojo's. I agree that the average boxer etc. is in much better fighting condition (at least as far as cardio goes) than the average karateka, but karate is not a sport and cannot be measured accurately using the rules of boxing/kickboxing/judo etc... Their purposes and methods are completely different.

[powerof0ne]

I think that Karate-do has deadlier techniques than boxing but that a boxer actually has experience applying most, if not all of all of their arsenal. Not many of us karateka go around striking an opponent in the larnyx or adam's apple. An average boxer however has thrown a jab, hook, uppercut, cross/straight to the opponent's jaw and nose many times.
Most of us, if not all of us have heard the saying that goes something along the lines of "fear the person that has practiced one technique ten thousand times, not the one that has practiced one thousand techniques once or twice"..You get what I'm saying.
The same goes with the kicks of Muay Thai...most of the kicks that you see are just variations of tiip/push kick and dtae/roundhouse. A boxer, kickboxer/thaiboxer will less likely hesitate to hit someone as hard as they can to end the fight. Most of them will most likely be more accustomed to getting struck in the head.
I know when I came from a karate background into Muay Thai I was head shy for about the first 6 months and this is a common factor for a lot of people from other martial arts that take up boxing/kickboxing/muay thai.
Now if you are a karateka that feels that you can actually use basamai dai to an opponent's adam's apple, than go ahead and try....One last thing, most boxers/kickboxer/thaiboxers keep their chins tucked in making it harder to strike to the throat...some schools of karate actually teach not to do this.
I personally hope I never have to purposely strike someone in the throat..I haven't had to yet.

I also wouldn't say Muay Thai or boxing is good for a sport and you practice karate because "yadda yadda yadda" reason to a practitioner of either art...I personally had to stop a bjj black belt once from beating the crap out of a ninjitsu instructor that said almost the same thing.

[Old Dragon]

Looking through the forums it seems many not only favour their own style but also place it above others.

So lets discuss the different styles and their strengths and short comings.

I am interested in this to learn about other styles training methods and backgrounds.

M.Miletic

I train in Isshin Ryu, I have trained in other styles and experimented with other styles as well. I also hold rank in Koubdo.

Isshin Ryu is a close in fighting style, has traits of Shorin and Goju. Over the last 24-25 years I have trained with Sensei who emphasize one or the other in IR.

Isshin ryu is Okinawan, I find that as I get older that the okinawan aspect of this art has begun to interest me. There are many similarities in the different styles of the Island and they all have common roots and ancestory. Understanding mechanics, strategies, applying different applications of the kata has become a long term study. One of the most interesting things is that after training for a long time in the style I have found (as stated before on this thread) that the similarities far out weigh the differences. I have studied the same kata (seiunchin for example) from the point of view of Goju and from an IR Perspective and within each of those styles there are varying Ideas. It is an amazing and rewarding journey.

IR as part of its syllabus has Chatan yara no sai as does Ryu Kyu Kobudo, The Kobudo version emphasizes hip action to a greater degree and has a slight variation in the moves, (more a variation of the sequence of moves than actual changes, combined with a slightly different emphasis on body mechanics) Personally I love the Kobudo version.

I originally began to train in the Kobudo to further study the roots of Isshin Ryu. Shimabuku trained with Taira Shinken, My sensei trained with Shimabuku. My kobudo sensei trained with Akamine, who trained with Taira Shinken, for me it was researching as close as I could what shimabuku was teaching. I was curious as to what teachings had influenced Shimabuku. I have not at this time been able to come as close to the origins of Shimabukus teaching in Goju and Shorin ryu. Kobudo taught me a ton of information about hip action. Both from the point of view of what Isshin Ryu uses and what it doesnt. In other words I experienced what my style utilizes and was able to compare it after several years of studying what it didnt do. I beleive that "sampling" the "other side" can only be done by training for a long period of time, not just a few seminars or classes. By understanding What we dont do helped me understand what we do.

I know that studying kobudo caused a few chuckles and shaking of the head in my sensei. He was aware of what I was doing and several times laughed and yelled "who taught you that" . It definatly started some informative and great conversations about differences of opinion and points of view. One in particular was the holding of the bo. The lead hand in the bo is held slightly different in each of the styles. Each sensei explained why, each demonstrated the superiority of each technique. What I came realize was that it was Preference in the original development that was the reason for the difference. Both techniques were sound, just looking at the same situation from a different perspective which could have been a result of different experiences of the originators.

When I came to this conclusion it opened all the doors. A style is defined by its Points of view and preferences of technique. For example IR wants to fight close in, from Goju in some cases, it has taken the perspective of moving in, taking the opponents balance, and delivering the technique. Other styles that have more emphasis on kicking will use a different distance, stand back and avoid rather than redirect an attack as IR would. Neither are superior in general, when you inject a student who perhaps is more adapted through body syle to kicks then it counts.

Sorry for being so long winded, but it is not a simple question to say why I prefer my style. I prefer my style because of the sensei I have trained under, and what they have taught me, and what they have encouraged me to do (research, cross train, explore outside of my style)

I now am seeking other Okinawan practioners and people to look into the martial arts as a whole on the island. Once again, I find that the similarities in the styles of this culture hold many similarities, and only a few differences. As I get older I find that IR is adaptable to older age. The philosophy of the style and its roots in Okinawan culture recognize that as I get older my techniques will adapt to a changing physical structure and that in doing so my techniques will have to adapt to this also.

Many north american sensei have a problem with this in as much as if you cant kick someone in the head then you havent trained hard enough. (just an example) In other words, as we age, our training changes, within Isshin Ryu and the sensei I train with, this is expected. It has been my experience that in some styles or rather some dojo it is seen as a weekness, not a positive stage of training.

I have learned more from a few "old" okinawans, than I have from a multitude of younger more athletic north americans than you can shake a stick at.

So yes........ I prefer my style....... it has exposed me to a wide range of martial artists and other points of view and made my training of the last couple of decades extremly interesting and rewarding.

Mike O'Leary

[Margaret Lo]

I think that Karate-do has deadlier techniques than boxing but that a boxer actually has experience applying most, if not all of all of their arsenal. ......Most of us, if not all of us have heard the saying that goes something along the lines of "fear the person that has practiced one technique ten thousand times, not the one that has practiced one thousand techniques once or twice"..You get what I'm saying.
......I know when I came from a karate background into Muay Thai I was head shy for about the first 6 months and this is a common factor for a lot of people from other martial arts that take up boxing/kickboxing/muay thai.
.....
I personally hope I never have to purposely strike someone in the throat..I haven't had to yet.

In 1995, I was lucky enough to have a coach for 6 mths by the name of Mikhail Grigoryan. A lightweight? olympian on the USSR team in the 70s, he was teaching at the Boston YMCA. He was a gentleman and very much a "sensei" to me. He never condescended to me and always reminded me "karate no good" because my head was an open target. That was an invaluable lesson on ma ai intrinsic to each style. The routine of boxers was also something I use sometimes to vary classes.

The fact that boxing pointed out weaknesses in karate sparring made me understand a great deal about...karate! and the need to look behind its tournament techniques to the underlying principles which, I finally realized were not really limited to empty hand fisticuffs. Rather, traditional karate training instilled in your body the software for mixed martial arts...that is a mix of strikes, unbalancing and weapons. The problem of strikes to vital areas is unsolveable since it will always remain too dangerous to be practiced on another person.

I wonder what happened to him. I regret that I left without a proper goodbye, caught up as I was in other things.

Brian, I agree that boxers can take on classical karateka and come out ahead, in the first 5 years of training. BUT, in 5-10 years, I think the outcome may be more even. Boxers also don't face much variation. During one round, I surprised a boxer by simply switching stance and jabbing with the right hand instead of the left and tagged his nose. Of course he wasn't that advanced but my point is, they train with a narrow range of expectations and also would need to x-train to deal w/ kicks and fighters as comfortable with a southpaw stance as a standard left forward guard - meanwhile many karateka train both left and right stance. I think the greater difference lies in the intensity of the workout as you pointed out.

M

[powerof0ne]

Yeah...I think there are some exceptional karateka and I hate to streotype but I also think it has to do with the "sort of people" that train in boxing vs. karate.
Karate, sadly isn't as available to inner-city youth as much as boxing is...One of the best boxing gyms in my area is in a very "bad part of town" but has turned out many athletes that go on to be in the olympics.
In karate, you have to pay $ to enter tournaments and if you travel out of state you have to pay for travel cost, hotel, food, etc...
I can't speak for amature boxing but I know that in kickboxing and muay thai that I have fought in and had a few fighters fight in that ALL TRAVEL expenses, food, and hotel was paid for by the fight promoter(s).
I think that if Karate did this than we would see a lot more exceptional karateka in competition. Unfortunately some younger inncer-city youths can't financially afford to compete in karate tournaments.
In Thailand by law you're supposed to be at least 12 to fight in Muay Thai competition but many times some of these thaiboxers start fighting at 8-10. This is why you can see a 20 y/o thaiboxer that has over 150 fights. Unfortunately some thaiboxers fight for survival, they are sent to thaiboxing camps by their families when they are very young to make $. So they're doing this for their dad, mom, brothers, sisters...not just for the fun of it. The fictional video game character "Sagat" in the street fighter video game series is actually the name of a real thaiboxer that has over 350 fights if memory serves me right...
I don't know about any of you, but I didn't get into martial arts and compete to make $ for my family, I did it for fun. I kind of look at some boxers here in the USA the same way. Very different from a University karate club or a commercial karate school, but this is just my opinion.

[Margaret Lo]

Yeah...I think there are some exceptional karateka and I hate to streotype but I also think it has to do with the "sort of people" that train in boxing vs. karate. Karate, sadly isn't as available to inner-city youth as much as boxing is...One of the best boxing gyms in my area is in a very "bad part of town" but has turned out many athletes that go on to be in the olympics.
.....
In Thailand by law you're supposed to be at least 12 to fight in Muay Thai competition but many times some of these thaiboxers start fighting at 8-10. .....they are sent to thaiboxing camps by their families when they are very young to make $. So they're doing this for their dad, mom, brothers, sisters...not just for the fun of it. Very different from a University karate club or a commercial karate school, but this is just my opinion.

Its not a stereotype, poverty has tough consequences. In Thailand, muay thai is not the sport of well educated middleclass youth. I knew one Thai kid at Princeton U who was training in Tangsoodo and never had muay thai training since its not something you dabble in. These boys are risking their lives in the ring. Their sisters may be sex workers in Bangkok - both the boys and girls are risking their bodies for nothing less than the welfare of their families.

Its ludicrous for middleclass people who train in karate for recreation to think they can compete with that kind of life or death motivation, whether the boxers are in Thailand or the US.

M

[hectokan]

Brian, I agree that boxers can take on classical karateka and come out ahead, in the first 5 years of training. BUT, in 5-10 years, I think the outcome may be more even. Boxers also don't face much variation. During one round, I surprised a boxer by simply switching stance and jabbing with the right hand instead of the left and tagged his nose. Of course he wasn't that advanced but my point is, they train with a narrow range of expectations and also would need to x-train to deal w/ kicks and fighters as comfortable with a southpaw stance as a standard left forward guard - meanwhile many karateka train both left and right stance. I think the greater difference lies in the intensity of the workout as you pointed out.

M

In 5 or 10 years it might be worse for the karate guy or gal(sorryM) if certain bad habbits are not broken.Boxers are always taught to protect themselves in a shell like protective shield with their chin tucked in and never going out of that shell to block anything.He acquires a defensive trait that pays great dividends in the long run.

A veteran boxer might not know that much about the kicking factor and it's trajectory but his great defensive tactics quickly enables him to learn and assimillate How to defend kicks properly much better than the standard karate guy,which have a tendency to reach out and leave it's practicioner exposed.

Ofcourse I am just generalizing here and we are talking specifically about sparring only(not weapons or self defense scenarios)and how it relates to boxing and karate sparring and I know,I know,it comes down to the individiual.The switching stance issue is also very much a individual thing.One of the best boxers that use to switch stance all the time was Marvin hagler.I was also fortunate enough to sparr with one of the best stance switchers in Don wilson back in the day,he was very good at that.Boxers and kickboxers are well versed in dealing with people that switch stances.

[Margaret Lo]

In 5 or 10 years it might be worse for the karate guy or gal(sorryM) if certain bad habbits are not broken.Boxers are always taught to protect themselves in a shell like protective shield with their chin tucked in and never going out of that shell to block anything.He acquires a defensive trait that pays great dividends in the long run.

Believe me I know! POW!! Margaret keep your hands up.

One thing fun about boxing is that the lack of blocking actually prevents collision injury. A lot of karate broken bones happen from blocking not from punching.

[Katsu!]

I train in Isshin Ryu, I have trained in other styles and experimented with other styles as well. I also hold rank in Koubdo.

Isshin Ryu is a close in fighting style, has traits of Shorin and Goju. Over the last 24-25 years I have trained with Sensei who emphasize one or the other in IR.

Isshin ryu is Okinawan, I find that as I get older that the okinawan aspect of this art has begun to interest me. There are many similarities in the different styles of the Island and they all have common roots and ancestory. Understanding mechanics, strategies, applying different applications of the kata has become a long term study. One of the most interesting things is that after training for a long time in the style I have found (as stated before on this thread) that the similarities far out weigh the differences. I have studied the same kata (seiunchin for example) from the point of view of Goju and from an IR Perspective and within each of those styles there are varying Ideas. It is an amazing and rewarding journey.

IR as part of its syllabus has Chatan yara no sai as does Ryu Kyu Kobudo, The Kobudo version emphasizes hip action to a greater degree and has a slight variation in the moves, (more a variation of the sequence of moves than actual changes, combined with a slightly different emphasis on body mechanics) Personally I love the Kobudo version.

I originally began to train in the Kobudo to further study the roots of Isshin Ryu. Shimabuku trained with Taira Shinken, My sensei trained with Shimabuku. My kobudo sensei trained with Akamine, who trained with Taira Shinken, for me it was researching as close as I could what shimabuku was teaching. I was curious as to what teachings had influenced Shimabuku. I have not at this time been able to come as close to the origins of Shimabukus teaching in Goju and Shorin ryu. Kobudo taught me a ton of information about hip action. Both from the point of view of what Isshin Ryu uses and what it doesnt. In other words I experienced what my style utilizes and was able to compare it after several years of studying what it didnt do. I beleive that "sampling" the "other side" can only be done by training for a long period of time, not just a few seminars or classes. By understanding What we dont do helped me understand what we do.

I know that studying kobudo caused a few chuckles and shaking of the head in my sensei. He was aware of what I was doing and several times laughed and yelled "who taught you that" . It definatly started some informative and great conversations about differences of opinion and points of view. One in particular was the holding of the bo. The lead hand in the bo is held slightly different in each of the styles. Each sensei explained why, each demonstrated the superiority of each technique. What I came realize was that it was Preference in the original development that was the reason for the difference. Both techniques were sound, just looking at the same situation from a different perspective which could have been a result of different experiences of the originators.

When I came to this conclusion it opened all the doors. A style is defined by its Points of view and preferences of technique. For example IR wants to fight close in, from Goju in some cases, it has taken the perspective of moving in, taking the opponents balance, and delivering the technique. Other styles that have more emphasis on kicking will use a different distance, stand back and avoid rather than redirect an attack as IR would. Neither are superior in general, when you inject a student who perhaps is more adapted through body syle to kicks then it counts.

Sorry for being so long winded, but it is not a simple question to say why I prefer my style. I prefer my style because of the sensei I have trained under, and what they have taught me, and what they have encouraged me to do (research, cross train, explore outside of my style)

I now am seeking other Okinawan practioners and people to look into the martial arts as a whole on the island. Once again, I find that the similarities in the styles of this culture hold many similarities, and only a few differences. As I get older I find that IR is adaptable to older age. The philosophy of the style and its roots in Okinawan culture recognize that as I get older my techniques will adapt to a changing physical structure and that in doing so my techniques will have to adapt to this also.

Many north american sensei have a problem with this in as much as if you cant kick someone in the head then you havent trained hard enough. (just an example) In other words, as we age, our training changes, within Isshin Ryu and the sensei I train with, this is expected. It has been my experience that in some styles or rather some dojo it is seen as a weekness, not a positive stage of training.

I have learned more from a few "old" okinawans, than I have from a multitude of younger more athletic north americans than you can shake a stick at.

So yes........ I prefer my style....... it has exposed me to a wide range of martial artists and other points of view and made my training of the last couple of decades extremly interesting and rewarding.

Mike O'Leary

I want to thank you for your very informative reply. The way you answered my origional post is what i had in mind with this thread, not arguments or arrogance

My school is closely allied with an Isshin Ryu school here in Sydney. My Sensei is training in Kobudo and has taught me some Bo, Sai and Kama kata.
We also visit each others Dojo for Shodan gradings for sparring.

You said "By understanding What we dont do helped me understand what we do." i couldn't agree more!
I have always had questions regarding grappling and throwdowns so after i reached Shodan in Goju i decided to train also in Japanese Ju Jitsu to figure out how the two differed. Just the differences regarding flow and stance have made for some very interesting contemplation.

Again thank you with all my respect,

M.Miletic.


PS. Could others please look at above reply by Mike O'leary and try to give me an answer set in a similar way. Cheers.