Good MA for children

[Rob Gassin]

Several years ago, I visited a number of local Training halls with my son to choose a MA. After careful consideration, we both agreed that the local hapkido club was the most appropriate. The reasons for the decision were:

1. The chief instructor was down to earth, was not pushy and was very approachable.
2. The 2 kids' instructors were primary school teachers.
3. The kids were having fun whilst training.
4. The training was very aerobic, with little emphasis on strength.
5. There was an appropriate level of discipline.
6. The club did not get involved in competition
7. At the age of 12 - 14yrs, depending on the child's physical and emotional maturity, the club had a smooth transition from junior to adult classes.
8. The style is very varied, including elements of judo, aikido and TKD.

Within 4 months of my son joining, I had joined as well!!

My background is in Shorinji Kempo, which I still practice (MY SK dojo had no junior class).

My advise to you is that for a 6 yo, the style is not crucial, the important thing is to find a reputable style and instructor that match your expectations and that of your child. The 'vibe' must be right.

[Rob Gassin]

With regards to martial arts injuries, I am not sure that anyone has actually done a scientific study comparing injuries from different styles and at what age or level these injuries occur.

A study in the mid 90's in New Zealand (Their model of health system makes such studies relatively easy) revealed that the 2 most dangerous sports are horse riding and fishing, followed (from memory) by the various codes of football (soccer - lower limbs, rugby - upper body and spine, Australian Rules - upper body and knees) followed by martial arts and basketball.

[MarkF]

With regards to martial arts injuries, I am not sure that anyone has actually done a scientific study comparing injuries from different styles and at what age or level these injuries occur.

Oh, yes it has been done. In fact, in one study, factoring in Judo, karate, and tae kwan do, judo led with the most injuries of any sport. Judo led because all injuries were counted, most of them being of the sprain, strain, small contusion/soft tissue injury type. Leaving out minor injuries completely, led to another study where judo was well down the list. There is one on the Aikido Journal web site concerning a rash of deaths in aikido in Japan. The cause may (or may not) surprise you.

Basically, all studies show that all active kids get injured which is simply a fact, but none of them have any duplicity in causing such injury. Kids being kids, they have booboos and fractures, concussions, and fatal injuries. Pretty much the same for everyone.

[Rob Gassin]

Thanks Mark,

Did a quick litterature search and this is what I came up with. Very interesting.

Med Sport Sci. 2005;48:59-73.


Martial arts injuries.

Pieter W.

School of Health Sciences, Science University of Malaysia, Kubang Kerian, Kelantan 16150, Malaysia. yshin516@yahoo.com

OBJECTIVE: To review the current evidence for the epidemiology of pediatric injuries in martial arts. DATA SOURCES: The relevant literature was searched using SPORT DISCUS (keywords: martial arts injuries, judo injuries, karate injuries, and taekwondo injuries and ProQuest (keywords: martial arts, taekwondo, karate, and judo), as well as hand searches of the reference lists. MAIN RESULTS: In general, the absolute number of injuries in girls is lower than in boys. However, when expressed relative to exposure, the injury rates of girls are higher. Injuries by body region reflect the specific techniques and rules of the martial art. The upper extremities tend to get injured more often in judo, the head and face in karate and the lower extremities in taekwondo. Activities engaged in at the time of injury included performing a kick or being thrown in judo, while punching in karate, and performing a roundhouse kick in taekwondo. Injury type tends to be martial art specific with sprains reported in judo and taekwondo and epistaxis in karate. Injury risk factors in martial arts include age, body weight and exposure. CONCLUSIONS: Preventive measures should focus on education of coaches, referees, athletes, and tournament directors. Although descriptive research should continue, analytical studies are urgently needed.

Br J Sports Med. 2005 Jan;39(1):29-33.


Injuries in martial arts: a comparison of five styles.

Zetaruk MN, Violan MA, Zurakowski D, Micheli LJ.

Children's Hospital, University of Manitoba, Canada. mzetaruk@shaw.ca <mzetaruk@shaw.ca>

OBJECTIVE: To compare five martial arts with respect to injury outcomes. METHODS: A one year retrospective cohort was studied using an injury survey. Data on 263 martial arts participants (Shotokan karate, n = 114; aikido, n = 47; tae kwon do, n = 49; kung fu, n = 39; tai chi, n = 14) were analysed. Predictor variables included age, sex, training frequency (<or=3 h/week v >3 h/week), experience (<3 years v >or=3 years), and martial art style. Outcome measures were injuries requiring time off from training, major injuries (>or=7 days off), multiple injuries (>or=3), body region, and type of injury. Logistic regression was used to determine odds ratios (OR) and confidence intervals (CI). Fisher's exact test was used for comparisons between styles, with a Bonferroni correction for multiple comparisons. RESULTS: The rate of injuries, expressed as percentage of participants sustaining an injury that required time off training a year, varied according to style: 59% tae kwon do, 51% aikido, 38% kung fu, 30% karate, and 14% tai chi. There was a threefold increased risk of injury and multiple injury in tae kwon do than karate (p<0.001). Subjects >or=18 years of age were at greater risk of injury than younger ones (p<0.05; OR 3.95; CI 1.48 to 9.52). Martial artists with at least three years experience were twice as likely to sustain injury than less experienced students (p<0.005; OR 2.46; CI 1.51 to 4.02). Training >3 h/week was also a significant predictor of injury (p<0.05; OR 1.85; CI 1.13 to 3.05). Compared with karate, the risks of head/neck injury, upper extremity injury, and soft tissue injury were all higher in aikido (p<0.005), and the risks of head/neck, groin, and upper and lower extremity injuries were higher in tae kwon do (p<0.001). No sex differences were found for any of the outcomes studied. CONCLUSIONS: There is a higher rate of injury in tae kwon do than Shotokan karate. Different martial arts have significantly different types and distribution of injuries. Martial arts appear to be safe for young athletes, particularly those at beginner or intermediate levels.

[MarkF]

Hi, Robert,

Thank you for actually using the journals. I found pretty much the same thing, the differences are slight and basically, point to the conclusions reached in the two you posted. After doing it yourself, you tire of doing the research for others, but if this continues, I'll post others, if the participants in this thread have further interest. What you have posted is pretty much what I found. Others have posted a few by individuals on behalf of educational institutions and governmental bodies as well. A search of E-budo for them should reveal some of them done in the past.

Never write off something on which taxpayers money may be spent. I have found this to be true in the US of almost everything the mind can imagine.


Mark

[Garryn]

So basically

1. Find a class (whatever style) that your kids enjoy

2. Expect that at some time they will sustain some kind of injury because they're kids and you can't wrap them in cotton wool for ever.

3. If they stop enjoying it, let them stop or find a different class, its their interest/pastime

[MarkF]

3. If they stop enjoying it, let them stop or find a different class, its their interest/pastime

Well, yes and no. If you do allow your child to choose, then it falls to the parent to find the best teacher. And, it isn't always the most talented person who is the best teacher. I am the perfect example of this. I always seemed to excel at teaching, be it music, English as a Second Language, or Judo, but my twenty plus years of competitive Judo were so-so, If I am going to be honest, though I had my moments (everyone has one or two very special moments ingrained on the mind which makes the hair on the back of the neck stand at attention).

At the age being discussed a first posted in this thread, children will change interests as most of us change underwear or dogi, if not more often. At six, I watched my own son, then my nephew go through the "I want everything" phaze. Spoiling the child is not the answer, IMO, the must learn that the things they choose are not for this month only, and whatever the child chooses, has consequences and s/he must do *everything* involved in that particular activity including the things they do not like, as well. Forcing the child to do something is not what I mean. Allow him to choose, then force the child to do the things involved in what he chooses and not be allowedt to back out because he did not anticipate the work involved to be a better person. At the first sign of difficulty for him, s/he will want to quit. Once s/he has kept his end of the bargain and spent the required number of years to understand what s/he is doing, only then should the child be allowed to move on. There are exceptions, of course, but generally, life is not fair and s/he must learn that as early as possible so his later years of study in other things will not surprise the child or the parents.

That is my opinion, about two cents worth, anyway.


Mark

[Garryn]

I was trying to compare what my childs experience would be in relation to my own. Until I tried a club/style I didn't know what was involved. I tried several possibilities over a period of time before finally settling. I am still looking for others to complement what I now do.
My eldest is 5 and has been doing preying mantis for a few months. He has suddenly decided that he doesn't want to go to the club any more as he is the youngest there. I could keep taking him back, but I believe it may be better to humour him and let him have happy memories of his time there. I believe this is more likely to entice him back when his age doesn't alienate him quite so much.
He's already said 'daddys going to find him a class more his age'. Might be a bit easier if he grows a bit first.


One thing I think this may illustrate is that entering into a contract for a childs training may not be advisable (I didn't)

[Victor Smith]

If I may offer a comment or two.

First I've only taught youth (ages 7-20 in combined class) Isshinryu for the past 27 years. I don't teach games only the same karate I train with the adults who train with me.

Teaching through the Boys and Girls Club the youngest they can join is age 7. Even at that advanced age, once the initial fascination of studying karate wears off, to stay with it requires they have a personal interest.

If they don't have their own interest in the study, they are better off doing something they are interested in. Karate is not one wit better than any other youth activity, and the range of activites that exist is because of the variety of human interest.

There is realistlically no difference between teaching youth or adults. Everyone always learns and retains at their own pace. The difference between adults and youth is that the youth cannot make their own decisions. They can't choose to come to class if their parents want to go someplace else, for example.

Because of this lack of choice and my instance that they only train with us part time (only offering two classes a week) they tend to take an average 7 to 9 years training to reach sho-dan. By then they're started to grow into their adult bodies, the beginning of their adult strength, and they can consciously choose to continue on into their training on their own merits.

For younger children I never recommend any type of martial training. Instead I suggest they attend the superior movement development activities I've found. I always recommend a beginning dance program (I did so with my own son at 5 and 6), or beginning swimming (far more important to learn how not to drown than to strike) or the youth soccer leagues (running is the greatest youth activity). I find they are superior ways to prepare young people for later life choices in training, building a wider range of skills at an intelligent pace.

I realize this isn't a popular approach with those who teach for a living, but there is a solid method to my approach. For one thing, I've discovered in over 90% of the people I've seen, if a student quits training in one art, it is almost astronamically impossible for them to switch arts later and succeed. I have seen two cases in 33 years, but on the whole, whatever path you initially take sets into ones nervous system, and it's unlikely a different path later will ever feel right and they will just stop again.

BTW this isn't a kid issue, it's the issue I've seen many times in many ages of people. To sincerely switch training after stopping, only the rare person really can get over the wrong feel factor. There is also another component, learning how to quit, how to stop, makes it much easie the next time something occurs to set training aside again, and there after become a self fulfilling activity.

I don't suggest its impossible, I have seen two cases where people beat those odds, but that's all I've seen hanging around as an istructor for 27 years.

Just the view from my vantage point.

[tonpo]

wow, very interesting thread to make a return to e-budo on after years long absence lol.

but i couldn't help but put in my two cents as well, being a father too. Though my daughter is only 3, I am looking forward to enrolling her in a school when I deem she is ready. From my pov, though children can be as smart (if not smarter at times)than adults. And tend to absorb new knowledge like a sponge better than adults, we can't forget they are still kids as well. As smart as they are, as eager as they are, a lot of the times they still have the traits that we all had at their age: impulsiveness, a million and one interests that change w/ the wind, and the habit of quitting things that pose a challenge.

At the ages we are discussing, children dont have enough information to form a rational, informed decision about which martial art they wish to take. That is why the burden of choosing the right school for them falls on us. If a parent puts their child in a class where there are no other children, thats one thing, because children need other children to look to and grow with. But if you enroll your child in a class that has everything that you deem would make the child happy, and all of a sudden they grow bored with it, or for some reason wish to stop training, i believe that is not a sufficient enough excuse to allow them to quit and move. Though we chose the art for them, if they showed any interest, as much as it hurts us to do so, we must make them see it through, at least until the point that they have enough MA experience to choose for themselves.

Even as adults, in our own martial arts worlds, how many times have we all thought about giving up (even those that love their art)? After the millionth time of performing the same kata/drill/form...after the millionth time doing the same swing/block/thrust of your bo/katana/bokken/jo, etc. Even the most zealous of us have thought "whats the point" or "god i dont want to do this anymore" at least in passing if not serious thought. But we continue, because it is worth while, and for the most of us, we are happy that we continued, because we overcame a hurdle, and we saw something through. That lesson should not be sheltered from a child.

We have to remember as parents, that the foundations that we lay now, while they are young, will determine what type of adult they will become. If you change them schools everytime they want to quit, for WHATEVER reason, that lays the foundation later on that they will think its ok when the going gets tough, to just up and leave...and they will never learn the other part of that saying: the tough get going. They will think its ok to drop something worthwhile "just because". But if you keep them in there, though they might hate you at the moment, though they might want to land those punches/throws/locks on you in their mind, for making them do something they dont want to do...later on, they will thank you, for making them stick it out.

I believe being a parent comes first...and being a friend only comes when being a parent is done with. Fine with me if my kid hates me, because im making her do something she doesnt want to do, so what im not her friend for the next week/month....but im being a PARENT in that im teaching her lessons that she will take w/ her the rest of her life.

someone mentioned it already, but why not train them on your own until they are old enough to choose for themselves? set aside 30 min a day at first and teach basics, and so on and so on...itll bring u closer to your children, and give you pride in their accomplishments, because youll see it every day. Dont forget that this is how martial arts were passed down a lot of the time..from parent to child, theres nothing wrong w/ it...and you especially would have nothing but your childs well being in mind.

my daughter at 3 has already shown interest in MA. When i do my taiji/bagua forms she tries to mimick me. and lately since i began shinkendo, when i practice at home w/ my bokken, she grabs her little plastic sword and does the same. i look forward to teaching her until she is ready to pick a school of her own, or at least take part in the choice made for her.

dont let them quit w/out a good enough reason...

[Garryn]

How many of us as adults tried a few different schools/arts before settling on the one you're doing now?
Did you think you'd stop with the first club you went to?

My 5 year old boy has stopped his kung fu. I could see he would want to and the reasons why before he did. He has good memories and in a year or so I may broach the subject again, unless he does first.

How many instructors want kids that don't want to be there?

[tonpo]

ahh, but sampling schools, to choose whats write for you, and quitting because of difficulty or just unexplained boredom are two very different things.

and if a child is raised properly, it won't matter if inside he doesnt want to continue or challenge him or herself, they should be well mannered enough to not let that show to their instructor and fellow students.

[Garryn]

As a kid I expressed an interest in fishing, my fathers sport. He went every week. I was provided with rod and reel and accompanied him on a regular basis, fun at first.

Long after I'd expressed the fact I no longer wanted to go, I was still taken along. If I'd been allowed to go leave it for a while I may have returned at a later date.

When the opportunity arrived to dump the pastime I took it wholeheartedly and never returned

The memories I have now are of arguments and trying to come up with a new excuse why I couldn't go.

I don't want my childs lesson to be "don't show an interest in anything 'cos you'll be stuck doing it"

(Don't quite know if we're completely at odds or just on slightly different tracks Tonpo. Parenting can be a hotter topic than Konigun!)