Aiki ken / jo origin

[Dave Humm]

Thank you, great stuff here

Part of my paper will discuss the merits of specific weapons training to assist in the development of taiso.

As an individual I am deeply interested in the Japanese sword and its connection to aikido, I'd like to pose the following question for your consideration. I already have my own opinions but rather have those debated (for the moment) I'd be greatly interested in reading your own.

Given the various 'supposed' connections with Ono-Ha Itto Ryu, Kashima Shinto-ryu etc, do we feel, to gain a deeper understanding of the origins of both aiki-ken and aiki-taiso, study of one or perhaps more of the sword style(s) which may have had a direct influence over aikido, would significantly develop our skills (over and above use of the bokken) or, are the benefits (if any) gained from knowledge of any sword style Gendai or Koryu generically beneficial to aikido principles?

Kind regards

[szczepan]

In other word the opponent will find out that Sokaku would dissappear from his eyes and Sokaku would stay suddenly on his left side in the right angle ,90degrees. Takahashi postulates that this footwork could be the origin of "Irimi" and "tenkan" in Aikido.

90 degrees????
Have you ever done sword?
If yes, so you know, that even 10 degrees is very difficult to do against well trained opponent. And these 10 degrees is more then enough to cut attacker down cold. So why such big sword master will go 90 degrees? I really dont see any martial reason for that.

[Brian Owens]

90 degrees????

...10 degrees is more then enough to cut attacker down cold. So why such big sword master will go 90 degrees? I really dont see any martial reason for that.

Perhaps you should spend a great deal more time studying Aikiken before you start rolling your eyes and making comments like, "Have you ever done sword?" (And I think the answer would be, yes, Takahashi Ken has "done sword.")

Although you don't see "any martial reason for [a 90 degree angle]" that doesn't mean that there isn't one.

We had waza that went anywhere from moving just slightly off line, to stepping well past the incoming aite and pivoting nearly 180 degrees, and everything in between.

[Charles Hill]

Aikidojournal.com has an article stating M.Ueshiba received a Yagyu Shinkage ryu sword certification from S. Takeda in 1922. One rarely hears about what that might have been about.

Charles Hill

[szczepan]

Although you don't see "any martial reason for [a 90 degree angle]" that doesn't mean that there isn't one.

And those reasons are...?

[Brian Owens]

And those reasons are...?

Take up Seiki Ryu or Daito Ryu, then ask your sensei.

[Dave Humm]

lol - Good 'ole Brian

Sarcasm not intended

Regards

[Andrew S]

Is their any chance that the choice of Kashima Ryu may have been guided by certain pragmatics? I believe O Sensei started experimenting with Kashima Ryu after moving to Iwama. Proximity may have been a major factor in his choice.
Any thoughts?

[thomas54]

Is their any chance that the choice of Kashima Ryu may have been guided by certain pragmatics? I believe O Sensei started experimenting with Kashima Ryu after moving to Iwama. Proximity may have been a major factor in his choice.
Any thoughts?

As far as I know, he started in Kashima Shinto Ryu during the early 1940's when he wa still at the Kobukan Dojo in Tokyo. I don't think it was for pragmatic reason.

Although this is not confirmed, it seems that he initialy experimented with Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. It is known that he got Yagyu Shinkage Ryu scrawlls from Takeda Sokaku, but as there are no records,no oral history of Takeda Sokaku's training in YSR, where and why Takeda got the scrawls and why he gave it to Ueshiba remains a mystery.

There are accounts that at least once a YSR master visited Ueshiba, Shioda Gozo saw the Fukuro shinai of YSR at the Kobukan Dojo and simpy thought that Ueshiba was studying YSR, so in Yoshinkan there were for a long time special YSR seminar for Uchideshi and instructors (a regular student was not allowed to attend).

From the above mentioned, I don't think that it was for only practical reason.

best

Tomoo Yawata
Yoshinkan/Aunkai
Tokyo

[Dan Harden]

Interview with Stan Pranin


repeated

********************

AW: O-sensei also reportedly studied a lot of other koryu arts outside of Daito-ryu.
SP: I would say that that's not true.
snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


So, you have this very brief stint in Tenjin Shinryo Ryu, some training in Yagyu Ryu jujutsu while in the army, a smattering of judo,(with a 17 yr old shodan) and then (20+yrs)Daito-ryu. That's it. The impression that he studied many different arts other than Daito-ryu and mastered them is completely false.
AW: So all of this talk about him being a sword master or a yari (spear) master are unfounded?

snip>>>>>>>>>

Later on in 1937, he actually formally joined a Japanese ryuha, the Kashima Shinto-ryu. In fact, he gave his keppan, his blood oath, along with that of Akazawa Zenzaburo. He apparently did not train but made arrangements with the headmaster of that art to have teachers come to the dojo. These teachers would visit the Kodokan and then O-sensei's Kobukan dojo. This went on for a year, year and a half with Ueshiba observing the training very carefully. Akazawa, Kisshomaru, and maybe a few other younger deshi would practice this art. The proof of the pudding is if you look at Saito Sensei's first kumitachi and the second one, they're virtually identical to those forms in the Kashima school. The discovery of the keppan and my interviewing the headmaster of that form told me the whole story.
AW: So it wasn't like he received a menkyo kaiden?
SP: No, he received nothing. ...................

********************

Dan

[Dan Harden]

It might be worth noting that in all the interviews with his students who were training with him and with his nephew who studied with him-none of them recall being with him or watching him formally training in anything with weapons. Only that he played and experimented with them (as training tools perhaps) for his burgeoning new art form. What he made of it should stand on its own merits... as it has.

Interviews and research and documentation should matter. We don't want to be here in 2006 saying the same stuff and repeating the same things written about him in 1966. It isn't about faith or conjecture- its biography. It's not- what we choose to believe. It's...what do we know. What can we prove.
The interview with Akuzawa says his Kashima training in Ueshiab's dojo lasted about a year. Ueshiba only watched but had "abilties to absorb from watching." Er....OK.
I can only imagine what anyone here would say about anyone else here learning that way. But just the other day I read an article where some people beleive the Japanese of that era were able to learn martial arts better than the rest of humanity since that time..... and Ueshiba was a Kami... and so it goes.

Dan

[thomas54]

Thanks Dan

That means that Ueshiba started to train in 1937. Definitly at the Kobukan.

By the way I recommend you to read this article of "Hidden" magazine.
It will prove how much he owed to Takeda Sokaku.

Mr. Stan Pranin's research revealed two things, that Ueshiba trained and owed much more than the Aikido community then would like to admitt,but also that he was a far better martial artist than some (two) Daito-ryu schools would like to admitt.

Sagawa Yukiyoshi said that he was the only one who got some intensive trainings about the sword from Takeda.

This article suggests that there was another one.
By the way, that is logical. I couldn't believe that Ueshiba could beat top swords men like Nakakura and Haga WITHOUT HAVING SOME SWORD TRAININGS PREVIOUSLY.

For some he was maybe a super human being who could beat top sword men WITHOUT HAVING ANY SWORD EXPERIENCE.

But not for me.

[JasonW]

I think its obvious that there are details about Ueshiba's early training history that have not yet been uncovered. Just because current research shows no documentation, does not mean things never happened. All documentation gives us is proof that something DID happen.

I prefer to suspend judgement and keep an open mind to the possibility that some new information may yet turn up.

cheers,

Jason Wotherspoon
Ipswich Aikido Club - Iwama style

[Dan Harden]

Jason

What is so "obvious" that it has escaped us all? The record of his life is clear. Interviews with his family members and fellow students -who were actually there are very clear. Interviews that have dates and are verified and oddly seem to check out and when cross-referenced don't leave enough time- unaccounted for- to have him doing anything substantial, with anyone, anywhere.
What is missing?

We all seem to agree that master level study in many arts takes..er....a few years, and that you had to be training with actual people who existed. The people who lived and worked and traveled with the man have spoken in detail.
The years are accounted for.
The locations are acconted for.
The statements are cross-checked and fit.
The timeline leaves no more room for him to have studied anything else.

All things considered, one thing remains clear-even considering all the myths.
This supposed mastery of a plethora of the Japanese arts led him to just what conclusion? His awakening and communing with the spirits gave him such a profound insight he decided to do..... just what? When this man decided to actually teach some thing to some one just what was it that he decided to teach and give rank and mokuroku in?...............Daito ryu. Why?
It was the only thing he "actually" ever knew enough about to teach.

Cheers
Dan
Occams razor
"One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything."
....All things being equal-a simple explanation is usually correct.

[yoj]

You mean he made it up from watching (videos)? Right - off to baffling with you ;-)