Legitimate Karate Systems

[Prince Loeffler]

What is considered a legitimate karate style ? example - If some guy trained in Shorin Ryu for many years achieved rank such as 4th Dan or 5th Dan, but decided to break away and form his own "ideals" , would that person's "creation" of karate still be considered legitimate style of karate ?

Can a person claimed lineage if he / she no longer adheres or follow his/her former Sensei's teaching and philosophy ?

Thanks !

[Budoka 34]

Wow Prince that is a loaded question!

My take over the last few years has been that all styles are "made up" so I don't bemoan modern creations as much as I used to. As long as they are based in some form of reality, give an accurate lineage and follow what they teach it's all good.


That being said I still have a great fondness and awe of all things Okinawan in matters of Karate.

[Harry Cook]

Do you mean systems like Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Uechi ryu, Kyokushinkai, Shito Ryu, Wado Ryu, etc et6c...they are all fusions of other older methods.
Harry Cook

[Blackwood]

Do they still train under their teacher? Or have they decided that they know all there is to know and no longer can be bothered to train? There is something satisfying about seeing my teacher being corrected by his teacher, a sense of continuence, of connection.

Those that cut those ties are moving down a different path.

But is it legitimate? I don't doubt the martial skills presented and taught, but am not so sure of the martial art.

[Nadelman]

Well, Tatuso Shimabuku formed his own relatively modern system, Isshinryu.

However, here were his parameters:

1) He was already a "master" in three well established systems (four if you include the Kobudo),

2) He had permission from the headmaster of each one of those systems,

3) He kept kata's from all three systems (the ones that fit his philosophy), and only made changes to those kata's to fit his philosophy (i.e. veritcal punches, shortened stances, etc.). He did keep the fundamental moves. By doing so, he maintained "lineage" with the katas.

4) He took Kusanku and added the Sai. When he did though, he added elements of Kyan No Sai to legitimize it.

5) He created one kata only on his own, using elements of the other established katas,

So, I think that if we use Soke Shimabuku as an example of how to create a new system, then I would say that maintaining lineage is crucial for legitimacy. He basically just played a variation of already well know songs. He put his own mark on them.

[wsteigner]

Hi Neil;Being somewhat of an Isshinryu buff, please let me address your
points as a quest for the correct history of Shimabuku Sensei and Isshinryu.
thank you

1.Could you name those systems and who gave him Master status in them.
Kobudo Shihan is on record in Taira Shinken Sensei book.

2. How is this established.

3. I know Shorin and Goju Ryu what is the third one or are you counting
Taira Sensei Kobudo?

4. Don`t really think it is established that Kyan no Sai Kata as done in
Isshinryu was made by Kyan Chotoku Sensei or by Shimabuku Sensei from
Sai Kihon he may have learned from Kyan Chotoku Sensei.

5. Total agreement.

Soke is not really an Okinawan traditional title but has crept in since
Shimabuku Sensei passed away.

thank you
bill steigner
Jinbukai

[Prince Loeffler]

Do they still train under their teacher?

Hi Mr. Blackwood, Let say they have stopped training with their Original Sensei but maintain training with other senseis that are not from the same ryu. Would the lineage from the original still be claimed ?

[Prince Loeffler]

Wow Prince that is a loaded question!

My take over the last few years has been that all styles are "made up" so I don't bemoan modern creations as much as I used to. As long as they are based in some form of reality, give an accurate lineage and follow what they teach it's all good.


That being said I still have a great fondness and awe of all things Okinawan in matters of Karate.

Hi Mr. Kite, I realized it is a loaded questions, but I thought I'd asked as it is killing my brain cells one at a time

[Prince Loeffler]

Do you mean systems like Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Uechi ryu, Kyokushinkai, Shito Ryu, Wado Ryu, etc et6c...they are all fusions of other older methods.
Harry Cook

Morning Mr. Cook, I do mean the systems qouted above. The proper follow up questions with this scenario:

let say I am in Okinawa training in Goju Ryu, Then I split after 25 years of training and holds a rank of Godan. I call my art "Goju Budo-ryu Karate", My arts has no traced of Goju Ryu into my recent " Creation" Would my art be recognized as legitimate karate style in Okinawa ? And it is obvious by then that I should not include the name "Goju" in my creation because I no longer practiced the art even though I have trained for many years.

Thanks again.

[Budoka 34]

Prince,

Whats with the Mr. Kite business? Please call me Randy.

[Prince Loeffler]

Prince,

Whats with the Mr. Kite business? Please call me Randy.

Very well, I will call you Randy from now on Mr. Kite... Just kidding, Thanks !

[Nadelman]

Hi Neil;Being somewhat of an Isshinryu buff, please let me address your
points as a quest for the correct history of Shimabuku Sensei and Isshinryu.
thank you

1.Could you name those systems and who gave him Master status in them.
Kobudo Shihan is on record in Taira Shinken Sensei book.

3. I know Shorin and Goju Ryu what is the third one or are you counting
Taira Sensei Kobudo?

Thanks for the correction. As I understand it, Choki Motubo was not known to have left behind a "Ryu", but I have read that he was known to have refferred to his art as "Kempo". He was known to be a major influence though on T. Shimabuku.

Kyan Chotoku - Shorin-Ryu
Miyagi Chojun - Goju-Ryu
Choki Motobu - (He referred to his art as Kempo)
Taira Shinken - Taira Sensei Kobudo

2. How is this established.

This is what has been passed down. He had sought permission before establishing "Isshin-Ryu".

4. Don`t really think it is established that Kyan no Sai Kata as done in
Isshinryu was made by Kyan Chotoku Sensei or by Shimabuku Sensei from
Sai Kihon he may have learned from Kyan Chotoku Sensei.

Correct.

[Harry Cook]

I think if you trained in GojunRyu (or any other style for that matter) for many years you could not help but incorporate Goju-like elements into your new system. even if you created new kata they would look a bit like Goju Ryu. You would not be able to help yourself, because the techniques, stances etc etc would be 'natural' to you. Of course if you trained in a number of systems you would have a bigger choice, but an educated eye should still be able to spot some of the root systems.
if you look at Kyokushinkai in its first say 20 to 30 years of life you could still see the Goju and Shotokan derived elements.
As to whether your new system would be legitimate on Okinawa. If your students entered and did well in the various competitions etc etc held in Okinawa and Japan that would go some way to being accepted. Many will say that tournament success means nothing, but if you keep on beating the representatives of the older systems you will gain a measure of acceptance yourself.
Harry Cook

[Prince Loeffler]

I think if you trained in GojunRyu (or any other style for that matter) for many years you could not help but incorporate Goju-like elements into your new system. even if you created new kata they would look a bit like Goju Ryu. You would not be able to help yourself, because the techniques, stances etc etc would be 'natural' to you. Of course if you trained in a number of systems you would have a bigger choice, but an educated eye should still be able to spot some of the root systems.
if you look at Kyokushinkai in its first say 20 to 30 years of life you could still see the Goju and Shotokan derived elements.
As to whether your new system would be legitimate on Okinawa. If your students entered and did well in the various competitions etc etc held in Okinawa and Japan that would go some way to being accepted. Many will say that tournament success means nothing, but if you keep on beating the representatives of the older systems you will gain a measure of acceptance yourself.
Harry Cook

Thanks Mr. Cook, these are all very good points. I thank you for these. Funakoshi's Shotokan was recognized by the Japanese. I often wondered if the Okinawan accepted his style at all despite the fact he trained in an Okinawan system.

[Harry Cook]

In the past, I think a number of Okinawan teachers were very critical of Shotokan, saying it was children's karate etc etc. However Shotokan now has a fairly large following on Okinawa (JKA shotokan primarily...or so I have been told), and it is noticeable that all of the things Gichin Funakoshi intoduced (gradings, belts, dogi etc etc) are used by the majority of Okinawan karateka.
Harry Cook