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Thread: What is Ki?

  1. #76
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    I'm not approaching it as a science, Trevor. How many times must I say that? I am coming from the traditional asian view on this.
    No, you're only parroting your former teacher's view on this

    Quick annecdote.
    I remember an 8th Dan kendo teacher in NYC, Ebihara. Awesome guy, great teacher(I thought at the time). I was a couple years down the line in my practice, and I knew, felt, that the older guys moved "different" than the younger ones. So I asked him to explain it...lo and behold he gives me the tired old,"Do the shoumen strike over and over", and the "you have to hold your Ki down here in the hara", and that was that.
    He didn't want to tell you.
    "#$"hole.
    Lol, the thing is, I can now "do" what he was doing, so I "know" it's a physical bodyskill. Nothing more nothing less.


    Besides, I suggest you talk to the Hsing-yi boxers on the mainland or Taiwan(You studied CMAs right?)
    They have a clear seperation between the philisophical metaphysical discussion of Qi, and what physically goes on in their body. Generally the two are considered seperate
    Unless of course you insist that people like Luo De Xiu (in Taiwan) or Sam Chin (in NYC) are only talking out of their !!!.

    What goes on in the body, and the metaphysical construct that we apply to view the world are two seperate things.


    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    Well, please, by all means, stop talking about it and do it. You're always talking about people who can "do". Have at it.
    Already did, in fact I think you already skimmed past it.
    See my post where Trevor thinks the Fascia isn't involved.

    On the other hand reading your post describing how you do your kuzushi, it's pretty clear you don't have it, to be quite blunt. Then again you might. (It has to be felt to be shown "IHTBFTBS" applies here )
    But I'd bet good money that you don't.


    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    But what if the old guy tells you it was "ki" (as in Morihei Ueshiba)?

    You accept his answer if he explains things mechanically, but you are too smart for him if he says it's ki. You just blithely unpack your Intelligent Design presentation package and hand out bumper stickers condemning the old man a "Ungodly". Or in your "scientific" thinking, "O'Sensei is Irrational".
    Ironic how Tohei, the guy that would eventually create the Ki society, was the one that called Ueshiba "deranged" and a babbling "madman".
    But once Tohei got his skill, he was just as vague as Ueshiba, even though he knew it was a "mechanical" skill tied to a flip in the psyche. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Besides, Ueshiba was vague on purpose. He didn't want to teach his students anything.
    Otherwise we'd be seeing a second Ueshiba around. But we don't
    He didn't give away his bodyskill training techniques. (Or rather he did, but no one listened).
    And while he talks about Ki, he also referrs to the mechanical body skill rather directly, in his quotes. "Happo ni michiru kami no chikara" blah de blah de blah... he was doing the old "ha ha, I know it you, but you don't. If you do, well, welcome to the club"


    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    Our "correct" or "natural" tonus is more efficient at everything than any other tonus we can maintain. I call this natural tonus "zero stance". Feldenkrais called it "neutral position". If one can completely release the "artificial" or "imitative" or "coerced" tonus he has adopted in developing his sense of self, his body will naturally assume the "neutral" posture and will naturally exhibit the "three external harmonies" of Chinese Martial Arts. In a natural-tonus body, the shoulders will harmonize with the hips. The elbows will harmonize with the knees. The hands will harmonize with the feet. The person will stand straight, relaxed, tall and light, mobile and strong. And he will be able to do any movement you show him.
    Now I know you're full of BS.
    That's exactly why most of the CMA practicioners in the US suck (no offense at any that don't).
    You have to mold the body physically to get those harmonies. They're not "natural" persay.
    Do the San-ti, or Tai Chi'S "playing the pi pa" with all internal and external harmonies fulfilled, and you should be ready to fallover in under a minute.
    There's a reason real Tai Chi training was considered a sadists' game

    AFTER a couple years of rigorous training like that, then you can exhibit a "zero stance" with meaning.
    Wait what was that chinese saying? "stance on the inside"...oh right they mean that you take that trained physical sensation and place it in whatever movement you're doing.
    Means its not exactly natural to the body. You have to train it to be that way.

    Someone without any of that rigorous training, and that had simply trained to "relax" and let Ki flow, would probably cave in to a well placed Thai low kick.
    Someone who's had the proper PHYSICAL training can stand there (apparently relaxed), take the kick, and whistle and pick his nose at the same time.
    Last edited by Asura; 25th January 2006 at 18:30.

  2. #77
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    Default Skimming again

    Quote Originally Posted by Asura
    No, you're only parroting your former teacher's view on this
    Again, skippy, give an example. As I have stated MANY times, Mochizuki sensei did NOT use ki as any kind of explanation.

    Now are you just committed to mis-stating and mis-representing other people's views, like an adolescent, or do you have an example of where I quoted Mochizuki sensei on ki?

    Quite the opposite. Pretty much ALL my views on this come from my readings, my experience with accupuncturists and shiatsuists and my experience in taiji, xing yi, bagua and aiKIdo.

    Has that crossed into your brain, Asura?

    Are you clear on that?

    Do you need to STOP right here and go back and read what I just said?

    Okay? Are you ready to proceed as an adult and deal with what I'm really saying?

    I remember an 8th Dan kendo teacher in NYC, Ebihara. Awesome guy, great teacher(I thought at the time). I was a couple years down the line in my practice, and I knew, felt, that the older guys moved "different" than the younger ones. So I asked him to explain it...lo and behold he gives me the tired old,"Do the shoumen strike over and over", and the "you have to hold your Ki down here in the hara", and that was that.
    When you consider that his teacher probably also refused to spoonfeed the answer to him, I don't consider it unreasonbable at all. I learned sword without having to be told precisely "how" to do it. Many years of practice and kata made me ready for lessons with masters.

    He didn't want to tell you.
    "#$"hole.
    Like I said. A BOY's attitude.

    Come back when you grow up.

    Lol, the thing is, I can now "do" what he was doing
    Gee, since I can't reach you, why don't you give yourself a big pat on the back? Already done that, huh? Okay.

    But I will say to your claim, "I can now 'do; what he was doing": BS. You THINK you can. You CLAIM you can. I don't even care enough to question that. Promote yourself to King of France, while you're at it.

    so I "know" it's a physical bodyskill. Nothing more nothing less.
    No, you know that what YOU do is a purely physical skill. You still don't know for sure what HE was doing.

    Besides, I suggest you talk to the Hsing-yi boxers on the mainland or Taiwan(You studied CMAs right?)
    They have a clear seperation between the philisophical metaphysical discussion of Qi, and what physically goes on in their body. Generally the two are considered seperate
    So they, too, teach as I teach?

    As I said, I consider ki to be much more a matter of daily life than of martial technique. But then, YOU were the one who insisted on addressing ONLY the "martial" aspects of ki...

    Unless of course you insist that people like Luo De Xiu (in Taiwan) or Sam Chin (in NYC) are only talking out of their !!!.
    No, it sounds like they are saying exactly what I am saying. The talking out the !!! would sound like you.

    On the other hand reading your post describing how you do your kuzushi, it's pretty clear you don't have it, to be quite blunt. Then again you might. (It has to be felt to be shown "IHTBFTBS" applies here )
    But I'd bet good money that you don't.
    That did NOT describe how I do my kuzushi, you poor reader. That was only a description of the interaction of two human skeletons in close proximity. I don't have kuzushi like Mochizuki sensei, who could get you off balance with a simple grip of your sleeve.

    Besides, Ueshiba was vague on purpose. He didn't want to teach his students anything.
    Hmm. Mochizuki had no trouble learning from him. Nor did Shioda.

    Otherwise we'd be seeing a second Ueshiba around. But we don't
    Well since you're in Japan, I suggest you head to Shizuoka and see Kyoichi Murai while he is still alive. Lay some of your BS on him.

    He didn't give away his bodyskill training techniques. (Or rather he did, but no one listened).
    That is a hugely ignorant statement.

    blah de blah de blah... he was doing the old "ha ha, I know it you, but you don't. If you do, well, welcome to the club"
    You have to mold the body physically to get those harmonies. They're not "natural" persay.
    Yes, they are natural. That proves that you are king of BS and backward in all your thinking.
    David Orange, Jr.

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    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
    Lao Tzu

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    That did NOT describe how I do my kuzushi, you poor reader. That was only a description of the interaction of two human skeletons in close proximity. I don't have kuzushi like Mochizuki sensei, who could get you off balance with a simple grip of your sleeve.
    Then can you describe how he got kuzushi on you by just gripping your sleeve?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    Hmm. Mochizuki had no trouble learning from him. Nor did Shioda.
    Actually I hear that Shioda got most of his skill from DRAJJ. But that's just heresay. One that I'm inclined to believe tho

    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    Well since you're in Japan, I suggest you head to Shizuoka and see Kyoichi Murai while he is still alive. Lay some of your BS on him.
    Awesome! Thanks for the tip. (I really mean that)
    Finding people with that "touch" is hard to find. I might make a trip out there at some point. Tho, if I don't get tossed around, my BS meter is going to have to be reworked, rebuilt from the ground up to accomodate you
    (In all honesty tho, if I make that trip, I do hope I get my !!! tossed. Making a trip like that only to be dissapointed would suck loads...)

    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    That is a hugely ignorant statement.
    Well, then you might want to head over to Ellis's Blog on Aikidojournal (Hidden in Plain Sight) and contribute something. They were discussing this for the longest time. It's a long read, but I'm sure you're enormous intellect should have no problem grasping it



    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    Yes, they are natural. That proves that you are king of BS and backward in all your thinking.
    Mmm nope. Totally disagree with you there. Like I said, IHTBFTBS applies here, but I'd bet money I'd be able to do stuff you couldn't

    Besides, "natural" is relative.
    To a crazy person, everyone EXCEPT him is crazy

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    Default Read this carefully, please, no knee-jerk answers!

    Now we ARE getting snippy! There's no need to be angry and pejorative, (And comparing me to a christian scientist is not only name-calling, it's inaccurate and completely off-base) I'm still commited to a friendly discussion, if you can cool down long enough to have one.

    All right, then, David, I have to go, analyzing data right now, but if you like, I can go over the thread tonight and clip out some stuff from it to respond to your claims and questions.

    I still would like you to clarify a few points, however.

    A. What particular qualities of a child are involved in genki, and how?

    B. What do you mean by creative application of human awareness?

    C. What do you mean by the ten thousand things of human consciousness.


    I would also like to point out that ancient wierdos like Aristotle, Plato, Hippocrates, and such were doing the same thing as the ancient Chinese and Japanese doctors. Both were practicing observational science. They reached different conclusions, but that is largely because they were using different memes to base their judgements on. One had humors, the other had chi.

    But they were BOTH practicing as you call it western science.

    Both were observing the same exact system, using the tools available to them, and reaching conclusions which they were able to test.
    They tested them by:
    Whether their patients got better or worse, in the case of doctors,
    Whether their other predictions came true; weather, tides of fortune, etc.

    And you know what, the early proponents of western science were WRONG! Plato was wrong, Aristotle was wrong, Hippocrates was wrong. Nonetheless, from their mistakes, we derived paradigms, explored them, found data that the paradigms couldn't hold, and then fought like mad over new paradigms until we found one that worked to explain what the old couldn't. And then we repeated that process with the new paradigm, and then the next, ad infinitum.

    As scientists, we're LOOKING for holes in our data, that's what honest scientists do.

    Now, I WOULD like to insist, before you impugn my capacity for science, my research ethics, my knowledge, and my intentions again, that you read T. S. Kuhn, Structure of Scientific Revolutions. This is one man who got it right. He's a historian of science. He explains what science really is, what it is for, what it does, and how it works.

    If you had read it, you would not have said the things to me that you have. I am not pleased to be insulted in a friendly discussion, and I would like you to try to understand the insults you gave before you again repeat them.

    I'm currently doing research in a lab that studies pain. I will then rotate through a lab that studies learning. One thing that fascinates me currently is the concept of the phantom limb, where a patient who has had an amputation continues to feel the limb that has been removed. I am wondering what chinese science and medicine has to say about the problem?
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Default Deep Experience and Sensitivity

    Quote Originally Posted by Asura
    Then can you describe how he got kuzushi on you by just gripping your sleeve?
    He did it by deep direct personal experience with his teachers, including Jigoro Kano, Kyuzo Mifune and Morihei Ueshiba--being the ones you may have heard of.

    But why would you be interested in my explanation. You should get some kind of meter that can read these things and analyze them for you and give you a computer printout of the results. Then YOU can have kuzushi like that, too.

    It's clear from all your comments that you need to be spoon fed everything and don't have the discernment to learn by observation. So why don't you write a book on the matter? Make new rules for Zen while you're at it. Make Zen a "rational" thing.

    Go ahead and pat yourself on the back for that one, too.
    David Orange, Jr.

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    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
    Lao Tzu

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    But why would you be interested in my explanation. You should get some kind of meter that can read these things and analyze them for you and give you a computer printout of the results. Then YOU can have kuzushi like that, too.

    It's clear from all your comments that you need to be spoon fed everything and don't have the discernment to learn by observation.
    Now who's gettin' snippy?

    I'm just curious to see if you can explain how the Kuzushi felt like. (Even if you can't do it yet)
    If you understood the principal of what was going on, then you should be able to explain it.

    Btw, I don't need to be spoon fed everything. A good scientist learns by observation as well. There's a reason I can explain this stuff, and turn right around and teach it to someone, whereas you still remain vague and wishy washy.
    The metaphysical stuff, you can remain vague on that. Whatever.
    But the movement side, you should be able to define what's going on.

    And there's a number of internal methods to apply Kuzushi on someone like that. Just curious how your teacher did it, and if you were able to discern how he did it.

    Cmon, you're versed in the CMA internal arts as well. This should be a cakewalk for you

    I'll give you a hint.
    It's not all in their head
    Last edited by Asura; 25th January 2006 at 21:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asura
    Actually I hear that Shioda got most of his skill from DRAJJ. But that's just heresay. One that I'm inclined to believe tho
    Yeah. I guess he was actually "teaching" Ueshiba from 1930 to 1938. I didn't know that.

    Awesome! Thanks for the tip. (I really mean that)
    Finding people with that "touch" is hard to find. I might make a trip out there at some point. Tho, if I don't get tossed around, my BS meter is going to have to be reworked, rebuilt from the ground up to accomodate you
    (In all honesty tho, if I make that trip, I do hope I get my !!! tossed. Making a trip like that only to be dissapointed would suck loads...)
    First, don't wait long if you want to see Murai sensei. He's in his 90s now, having trained with Mochizuki sensei from the early 1950s until the late 1990s. I'm not sure he's always at the dojo. He used to live in Omaezaki and came to the dojo only on occasion. He's now the top man there, but I don't know if he's always there. What his health is like now, I can't say.

    However, if you don't find him, ask for a guy named Akira Tezuka. Go up and lay some attitude on him. I could give you the addresses of some people who would URGE YOU NOT TO DO THAT, but I personally think you could use a good lesson in humility. So I would suggest that when you meet him, tell him that aikido is a bunch of BS and then stick your face out at him. You know. Just be yourself.

    Likewise if you are so undeservingly blessed with the chance to see Washizu sensei in action, by all means, go over there and show him who's boss.

    Maybe Murai sensei is really too old now, but that's what I thought the first time I met him an NO ONE has ever shocked me so thoroughly in 33 years of martial arts training.

    And on that matter, based on your attitude and lack of profile information, were you even alive 33 years ago? How long have you been doing budo and what are your academic credentials? Since you are asserting mastery in all these areas...

    Well, then you might want to head over to Ellis's Blog on Aikidojournal (Hidden in Plain Sight) and contribute something. They were discussing this for the longest time. It's a long read, but I'm sure you're enormous intellect should have no problem grasping it
    Is this where he discusses whether aikido techniques are based on children's movement?

    No. That is the one on Natural Movement. I think I've read the Hidden in Plain Sight columns. Intersting. Nothing earth shaking. Nothing particularly new.

    Mmm nope. Totally disagree with you there. Like I said, IHTBFTBS applies here, but I'd bet money I'd be able to do stuff you couldn't
    Well, for the past several days, you've been farting rings around yourself and managed to call a distinguished teacher an a-hole in the bargain. You've been disrespectful, asinine, childish and a general jerk. I guess I "could" do those things, but you're so good at them...

    And I guess you must really be a young fellow because you don't seem to know a thing about infants and toddlers--something every adult man have experience with by age 30. Are you in your 20s yet?

    Ellis Amdur's column on Natural Movement is the one I'm interested in because as far as I know, I am the originator of the idea that aikido techniques are derived from the movements of toddlers.

    Do you need lessons on going to the toilet, too? You have so little understanding of natural movement you don't recognize that all your sadistic lessons are leading you back to natural standing and movement.

    Besides, "natural" is relative.
    With a very wide range of acceptable values.

    To a crazy person, everyone EXCEPT him is crazy
    I see. So I will NEVER get a sane answer from you? Just more and more self-referential babble claiming to be scientific?

    Thanks for the heads up on that one.
    David Orange, Jr.

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    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
    Lao Tzu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    One thing that fascinates me currently is the concept of the phantom limb, where a patient who has had an amputation continues to feel the limb that has been removed. I am wondering what chinese science and medicine has to say about the problem?
    Hi Trevor,

    I'm not aware of any references to phantom limb pain in the Chinese medical classics, though that doesn't mean much because there is a huge amount of literature and I'm sure they were familiar with the phenomenon. I will say that I had an elderly patient in the last year who was having phantom leg sensations that were keeping her up at night. Her leg had been amputated at the hip (i.e. no hip joint), and she was having "crawling" sensations down her missing leg.

    A guess as to what Chinese acupuncturists would have said two thousand years ago would be that the qi was still circulating where the leg used to be, just not in the way it was supposed to. But that's just one possibility - they might just have equally said that it was a type of madness to be feeling sensation where there was no limb.

    It might also depend on what kind of sensation it was - dull pain is usually considered a problem of qi stagnating, while sharp, fixed, stabbing pain is considered to be either blood stagnating or cold that has gotten into the channels, whereas the "crawling" sensation my patient reported would be characterized more as a manifestation of wind in the superficial layers of the body.

    The reason all of those different etiologies is important is that it is likely that any sensations other than those attributable to qi stagnating might be considered a mental problem, because blood, cold and wind are in some ways more "physical" than qi.

    But this is all speculation - I treated it using a slightly different paradigm that didn't rely on differentiation between qi, blood, cold or wind stagnation, but instead on the relationships known as the "Six Harmonies" and the theories of yin and yang in relation to how the front/back, top/bottom and left/right sides of the body are related. The treatment actually worked for brief periods of time, usually for about 5 hours after each treatment, but there was no overall change in her condition and I told her after about 6 treatments that I thought it was unlikely we were going to be able to achieve any lasting results.

    I have my own speculations about what phantom limb pain means in terms of western physiology and how it relates to classical Chinese physiology, but I'll spare everyone the details so we can get back to the Jerry Springer episode that is currently underway.
    Josh Lerner

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    And I guess you must really be a young fellow because you don't seem to know a thing about infants and toddlers--something every adult man have experience with by age 30. Are you in your 20s yet?

    Ellis Amdur's column on Natural Movement is the one I'm interested in because as far as I know, I am the originator of the idea that aikido techniques are derived from the movements of toddlers.
    With respect, could I ask you again to answer my question about infants and toddlers?
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    So I would suggest that when you meet him, tell him that aikido is a bunch of BS and then stick your face out at him. You know. Just be yourself.

    Likewise if you are so undeservingly blessed with the chance to see Washizu sensei in action, by all means, go over there and show him who's boss.

    Maybe Murai sensei is really too old now, but that's what I thought the first time I met him an NO ONE has ever shocked me so thoroughly in 33 years of martial arts training.
    And I don't doubt you.
    Plus go back and read what I wrote. I never said anywhere that "Aikido" sucks.
    Just the majority of people doing it
    I'd welcome the opportunity to get my !!! trashed.


    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    And on that matter, based on your attitude and lack of profile information, were you even alive 33 years ago? How long have you been doing budo and what are your academic credentials? Since you are asserting mastery in all these areas...
    I'm not asserting mastery. I'm asserting a certain level of competency, which you don't seem to be able to do.
    You still haven't answered my question on Kuzushi.
    Stop dodgin' the questions.

    I've only been doing MAs for about 6 years now? But only got a good grip on the core basics in the last 4.

    Training here in Japan at this particular class has enabled me to goto Abe Sensei's Dojo in Kyoto, throw around more than a few of his senior students (all of them with at least 8 years more experience on me), goto the Tomiki Aikido branch here in Tokyo and have them unable to be able to do anything.

    I've also been able to apply the same bodyskill successfully to BJJ and have no problems going head to head with guys 25kg heavier than me, and years more experience(despite my lack of ground experience..6months of crap newaza in college 3 years back doesn't count) and stop them in their tracks. Something I've yet to hear from any other IMA type guy except maybe Tim Cartmell.

    Let's see...we had a Yoshinkan shihan with 30 years experience walk into our class, and get held down by a first year student during Agete practice.

    So up until now the results speak for themselves.

    And yes, I'm only 26... which means that you should be the better man and not be getting so riled up by lil ol me




    Is this where he discusses whether aikido techniques are based on children's movement?

    No. That is the one on Natural Movement. I think I've read the Hidden in Plain Sight columns. Intersting. Nothing earth shaking. Nothing particularly new.


    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    Well, for the past several days, you've been farting rings around yourself and managed to call a distinguished teacher an a-hole in the bargain. You've been disrespectful, asinine, childish and a general jerk. I guess I "could" do those things, but you're so good at them...
    Um...actually you've been staying tit for tat with me in terms of the insults. Frankly I was expecting smarter, and sharper insults. Since you're the wiser one

    As for Ebihara, I was only expressing that in jest.
    He's a wonderful teacher, and I owe him a lot, if only for pwning me constantly and smacking my eardrums more than once.
    When I think back on it now, I think its too bad that neither him nor the top iai teacher their would teach those body skills directly, especially since Ebihara used to bitch about how sporting Kendo had become. Then again, he was your typical Japanese salary man. They're pretty hard headed when it comes to changing their ways.
    No less respect though.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    Ellis Amdur's column on Natural Movement is the one I'm interested in because as far as I know, I am the originator of the idea that aikido techniques are derived from the movements of toddlers.
    LOL.
    Now THAT is funny.
    You think you're the first one to observe that?
    That idea is old news over here in japan.
    How toddlers move do overlap with the particular bodyskill.
    You still have to train it correctly, and build up those parts up the body, and mold it to work more effeciently.
    Even Sagawa said that the reason why no one could do the stuff he could was because their bodies weren't ready yet. (Besides the snide comment that everyone under him was stupid. You should read his book, Toumei no Chikara. The old man had quite an attitude,but then again he deserved it )

    IE, they hadn't reached that stage where their bodies had changed.
    Oh wait...the chinese talk about this too...
    I thought you were versed in the CMA arts

    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    Do you need lessons on going to the toilet, too? You have so little understanding of natural movement you don't recognize that all your sadistic lessons are leading you back to natural standing and movement.
    Toilet jokes huh? I thought that was below you
    No I do understand that it leads back to that. But you still have to mold/forge your body with those "sadistic" lessons in order to understand what "standing" really is, and then strengthen/reinforce those components.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    I see. So I will NEVER get a sane answer from you? Just more and more self-referential babble claiming to be scientific?

    Btw, you're taking this way too seriously.
    Lighten up

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    Default Not "Christian Scientist" but "Creation Scientist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    Now we ARE getting snippy! There's no need to be angry and pejorative, (And comparing me to a christian scientist is not only name-calling, it's inaccurate and completely off-base) I'm still commited to a friendly discussion, if you can cool down long enough to have one.
    No, "comparing" your arguments to the efforts of Intelligent Design pushers is about the most accurate analogy than anyone could make. It isn't name calling, but it is on base for what you're doing.

    The Intelligent Design people have no respect for the standards they are trying to bend. You have no respect for the culture you are trying to "supersede".

    All right, then, David, I have to go, analyzing data right now, but if you like, I can go over the thread tonight and clip out some stuff from it to respond to your claims and questions.
    Please do.

    A. What particular qualities of a child are involved in genki, and how?
    First, he is healthy. Second, he is lively. Third, he is fearless (in general). Fourth, he is bright and alert. This applies not only to children but to adults and anyone who is genki (has "original ki").

    B. What do you mean by creative application of human awareness?
    I don't remember the context of that statement, so I don't know exactly how I used it previously, but Mochizuki sensei said that jujutsu was a product of Japanese culture. It shows how the Japanese people used forebearance and creativity to learn to overcome the larger and stronger people who would keep them down.

    In general, by that term, I mean "look, see, notice, understand, creatively develop a method that best employs what you noticed by looking and seeing."

    I think it was Douglas Adams who said that entropy is, indeed tearing the universe apart, but creativity is constantly putting the broken pieces back together in strange, improvisational ways, so that creativity is the universal answer to entropy.

    Again, I would have to see your question and my response to explain exactly what that meant in that context.

    C. What do you mean by the ten thousand things of human consciousness.
    Sorry. I guess I just assumed that everyone loves Tao te Ching as much as I do. Lao Tzu said, "The tao begot one, one begot two, two begot three and three begot the ten-thousand things."

    I understand it to refer to the multiplicity of human existence. Of course, there are many more than 10,000 things. I'm sure he used (in Japanese, via romaji) the kanji for "ichi-man butsu". He uses 10,000 to indicate the endless variation of phenomena in this world where humans are conscious.

    I would also like to point out that ancient wierdos like Aristotle, Plato, Hippocrates, and such were doing the same thing as the ancient Chinese and Japanese doctors. Both were practicing observational science. They reached different conclusions, but that is largely because they were using different memes to base their judgements on. One had humors, the other had chi.
    Or aether.

    But they were BOTH practicing as you call it western science.
    They were at the root of it.

    Both were observing the same exact system, using the tools available to them, and reaching conclusions which they were able to test.
    They tested them by:
    Whether their patients got better or worse, in the case of doctors,
    Whether their other predictions came true; weather, tides of fortune, etc.
    Hmm. Chinese medicine works the same way.

    And you know what, the early proponents of western science were WRONG! Plato was wrong, Aristotle was wrong, Hippocrates was wrong. Nonetheless, from their mistakes, we derived paradigms, explored them, found data that the paradigms couldn't hold, and then fought like mad over new paradigms until we found one that worked to explain what the old couldn't. And then we repeated that process with the new paradigm, and then the next, ad infinitum.
    Well, that is an excellent description of how the Western method developed. But the Eastern way need not be held to those same ways of working.

    As scientists, we're LOOKING for holes in our data, that's what honest scientists do.
    Yes, of course. But I am not a scientist. I never claimed to be. I presented my summary of Eastern thinking that is completely consistent with their own summaries. I see no need of taking that apart and holding to Western standards.

    By the same token, working as a project coordinator in occupational epidemiology and biostatistics, learning to listen to these doctors and to understand the questions they're asking and the methods and restrictions within which they have to ask them, I would NEVER think of inserting any kind of discussion of "ki" to their work. Maybe in passing if someone decided to ask me something about Japanese culture or something (one of our study sites is in Japan), I might mention ki, but I would never try to insert it into their way of thinking or studying their questions.

    I would never demand that they turn to the Bible for answers in scientific fields. I would never imagine telling them that their calculations are invalid because as a Christian, I know that the earth is only 6,000 years old...

    Wouldn't that be stupid? Wouldn't that be arrogant? Wouldn't it be arrogantly stupid to the point that, when I spoke, stupid bees came out of my mouth?

    Please have the same respect for other cultures. Don't try to nullify massive swathes of their language to make yourself comfortable with the idea that you have "mastered" their system. Isn't that what Phony Sokes do? What difference does it make if you steal from them by wearing their fashions and awarding their belts or if you steal by claiming you have translated the "WHOLE" system into Western scientific terms?

    Now, I WOULD like to insist, before you impugn my capacity for science, my research ethics, my knowledge, and my intentions again, that you read T. S. Kuhn, Structure of Scientific Revolutions. This is one man who got it right. He's a historian of science. He explains what science really is, what it is for, what it does, and how it works.
    I will attempt to find time to give that book a look. It sounds interesting, but I do have more than a passing familiarity with science in general and several specific areas of science as well. I understand the scientific method, experimentation, documentation, reproducibility of results, etc. I think that's the only way to really pin down what your thoughts are, where you have been with your thoughts, where you have not been, where you want to go with your exploration, etc.

    But it is a system with internal logic and rules.

    You see? It is ONE system of many ways of thinking. It is great for launching rockets and examining atoms, but how good is it for painting or writing poetry or dancing or doing martial arts?

    The Eastern ways are ALL ABOUT DIRECT PARTICIPATION: NO INSTRUMENTS (as in meters and "o-graphs" and such). They are about human feelings and the human heart. This is where science cannot give us useful answers because the terms cannot be used in scientific questions.

    But ki also accounts for the whole environment in which humans live. We cannot be separated from our environment any more than our minds can be completely separated from our bodies. We can create an artificial environment, but humans must get back to the natural environment pretty quickly or they will die or become neurotic.

    It is as pointless to try to make this into something you can measure with meters and graphs as it is to try to turn "Guernica" into a mathematical equation. It may amuse the one who does it, but it remains irrelevant.

    I am not pleased to be insulted in a friendly discussion, and I would like you to try to understand the insults you gave before you again repeat them.
    I understood them when I made them. And I made them in response to your insults toward me. Didn't know you made any? You dismissed my statements, summarized them incorrectly, skipped over answers that you demanded, etc.

    My answers generally go right along the lines of the person with whom I am discussing things.

    I'm currently doing research in a lab that studies pain. I will then rotate through a lab that studies learning. One thing that fascinates me currently is the concept of the phantom limb, where a patient who has had an amputation continues to feel the limb that has been removed. I am wondering what chinese science and medicine has to say about the problem?
    I think it's probably very similar to what a Western doctor would say. And I'm guessing that would be that the severed nerves still have some activity or are stimulated by something and that the mind interprets these nerve signals as coming from the limb that is no longer there.

    As for me, I am currently studying whether removal of the thymus gland and administration of prednisone is really more effecitve in treating Myasthenia Gravis than treatment with prednisone alone. We are expecting 70 surgical centers around the world to participate. My tasks involve logistics for training the participants and documenting the results. But I have to understand what the doctors are talking about and most of that does not involve either the disease, the surgery or the medication. It involves the database we will use, the sub-routines the programmers will use to make the database interactive, and so on. Pretty much all these matters are beyond my personal ability, but I have to know enough about each of them to understand exactly what the experts need from me.

    It's wonderful work. The people are great, even the restriction of thinking in a narrow range is fun.

    But I don't want anyone rewriting the Bible or Tao te Ching or the Kojiki according to those standards. And when it comes to "ki" I understand it in the terms left for us by the ancient sages who developed the concept.

    And when it comes to science, I never bring I Ching or Zen or ki into it at all.

    There's that old saying, "A place for everything and everything in its place". That means that "ki" notions have their rightful place, outside which they should not be used. And science has its rightful range, outside which it is ridiculous to attempt to use it (such as in art or certain aspects of budo).

    I don't want Christians running my government solely because they stirred up enough fearful people to think that Christianity is the answer to all our governmental problems.

    And I don't want scientists fiddling around with art, music, dance, aikido or taiji if they mean to discard these real arts and "supersede" them with misguided explanations forced to fit.

    Best wishes.
    David Orange, Jr.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
    Lao Tzu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Lerner
    But this is all speculation - I treated it using a slightly different paradigm that didn't rely on differentiation between qi, blood, cold or wind stagnation, but instead on the relationships known as the "Six Harmonies" and the theories of yin and yang in relation to how the front/back, top/bottom and left/right sides of the body are related. The treatment actually worked for brief periods of time, usually for about 5 hours after each treatment, but there was no overall change in her condition and I told her after about 6 treatments that I thought it was unlikely we were going to be able to achieve any lasting results.

    I have my own speculations about what phantom limb pain means in terms of western physiology and how it relates to classical Chinese physiology, but I'll spare everyone the details so we can get back to the Jerry Springer episode that is currently underway.
    I can tell you one way that an indian doctor treats it, though it is the so-called "Western" medicine, I must confess. He uses a mirror! What he does is that he sets up a mirror so that the existing limb is mirrored where the nonexistant limb used to be. At that point, moving the existing limb gives the SENSATION of moving the missing one. Cool, eh? Given that what was going on was extremely painful "phantom cramps," the mirror movement released them! I must say I was really fascinated!

    Oh, one interesting tidbit, which I don't know if you can interpret or not... Basically, if you prick someone in the side of the face, a person will feel pricking in the fingers of a phantom limb. If you prick someone in the testicles, the will feel it in missing toes of a phantom limb. If you're not missing the limb, it all works normally, but I found that really interesting.


    Springer, eh? Never seen it. Should I be yelling or cheering? Or going back to my evolutionary origins and flinging poo like the chimps in the zoo?
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
    With respect, could I ask you again to answer my question about infants and toddlers?
    Which one? You mean, what qualities in a baby are "genki"? If so, already answered, above.

    If not, please remind me.
    David Orange, Jr.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
    Lao Tzu

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    I don't remember the context of that statement, so I don't know exactly how I used it previously, but Mochizuki sensei said that jujutsu was a product of Japanese culture. It shows how the Japanese people used forebearance and creativity to learn to overcome the larger and stronger people who would keep them down.
    More like they were busy figuring out ways to better kill themselves, considering the long periods of civil war.
    Not to mention that most of the stuff probably originated in china anyways. (There's too much overlap to be coincidence)

    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    I think it was Douglas Adams who said that entropy is, indeed tearing the universe apart, but creativity is constantly putting the broken pieces back together in strange, improvisational ways, so that creativity is the universal answer to entropy.
    Douglas Adams was a comedic writer. If that's your standard for getting ideas...


    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    Well, that is an excellent description of how the Western method developed. But the Eastern way need not be held to those same ways of working.
    Um...why? Are they special?

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