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Thread: Effectiveness of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu

  1. #16
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    Toby and Brently,

    In my humble opinion, based on my limited experience, I would have to say that I agree with you both...to an extent.

    In regards to the pycho-cemical stress. I know that in our school, from the begining, we go through a progression of "fear break-down" training. First by learning rolls and falls to get over fear of the ground, on up to fears of being grabbed, punched, choked, held down, pinned against a wall, struck with sticks, knives, swords...etc, by singular and muliple attackers. The situations can be quite stressful (especially when live weapons are involved, I personally have been cut-still didn't drop my sword though)
    What we strive for is the elimination of the stress responce.
    I don't believe that, for the most part, just anybody is cut out for this(no punn intended)or the "higher level" aikijujutsu. I've seen those that, regardless of the "qualified teacher, a willingness to learn, proper training and practice" will never really be able to use aikijujutsu to defend themselves in a real situation, or have the level of bodily control to do them. Some people just have fears that they can't get over.

    In regards to using the simplest techniques on the street. Well, your going to use intsictivly those techniques you've practiced the most. Basics.
    I know in our school we practice basic technique far more than the adavanced aiki techniques.
    I spent six years as a bouncer,in situations that involved multiple attackers and weapons, and I never HAD to use anything but the most basic techniques. The situation just never required it. This was before I began training with Don, but my training none-the-less made everything seem as though it were in slow motion.
    Besides, I think it really depends on what kind of aiki techniques your talking about. There are very simple distractions, on up to throwing without touching. In our school Aiki techniques are those that mess with the attackers senses.I think that the advanced techniques, in some cases, are really for the lessons they teach and the skills you aquire in learning them, than for practical application.

    Incidently, those who have attended Don's seminars really haven't seen any of the basics we practice. He really only demonstrates the advanced stuff, and rarely are we allowed to play with it. There is a much harder-less aiki form of jujutsu, including striking and kansetsu waza that we don't get to show.
    Also, in our school anyway, you have to go through training in "lower level" techniques, which often include aiki principles, before learning "higher level" techniques. More often than not the "higher level" stuff is just a different application of the basics.

    In regards to the the original question.
    The main difference, physically anyway, between jujutsu and aikijujutsu is that in aiki you try to take control of the opponents center right away. This allows you control of the whole body. I've often seen, and experienced, jujutsu techniques that only control the limb, and try to use pain to control the attacker.

    Aiki does achieve this through skeletal locking, though they are much more subtle, less overt, connections that don't always feel like locks. Some cause the opponent
    to "tense-up", causing the opponent to flex his muscles, thus holding or "locking" the bones in place, giving a connection to the center. Others achieve this through extension, "taking the slack out" of the body between the point of contact and the opponent's center. Still others simply lock the bones so subtley that you hardly notice it happening until your on the ground.

    Well that was far more than I was originally going to say so I'll stop now, besides it's just my humble opinion.


    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

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    Richard,

    Any time you want throw your opinion in the mix, I welcome you to do so, I'm sure Toby will agree with me on that too.

    "What we strive for is the elimination of the stress
    responce."

    Yes, I agree. It is the same in Daito-ryu.

    "I don't believe that, for the most part, just anybody is
    cut out for this (no punn intended) or the "higher
    level" aikijujutsu. I've seen those that, regardless of
    the "qualified teacher, a willingness to learn, proper
    training and practice" will never really be able to use
    aikijujutsu to defend themselves in a real situation, or
    have the level of bodily control to do them. Some people
    just have fears that they can't get over."

    We might be splitting hairs on this one. I think you and Toby are right to an extent. I know for example some of my seniors who have been training for 10-15 years who still don't seem to really get it. However, I would argue that although they attend and participate in Okamoto sensei's classes, they're not really "training properly". And although they want to learn, they are either not "willing to learn" in some way, or they don't believe they will ever be able to really get it.

    The willingness to learn that I am talking about is related to the ideas of the beginners mind, and having an empty cup. I'm not sure if it's that "some people just have fears that they can't get over", or whether they're just not interested in dealing with them. For some people it's not fear as much as it is prejudice, or previously concieved ideas and notions of reality and potential that they are unable to let go of. I wonder if they're really unable or just unwilling?

    One other consideration is the instructor. One may also have a "qualified instructor" who is not willing to individually tailor their teaching according to individual needs to produce the highest level of proficiency in each individual. They may favor some individuals over others for whatever reasons. They may be looking for something in the student whether it be an attitude, initiative, maturity, persistance, humility, or whatever. To a certain extent one also has to teach yourself also how to learn what the teacher is teaching.

    I absolutely agree that you're most likely to use the techniques that you've practiced the most. Which are usually basics. The basic jujutsu techniques/kata we have in Daito-ryu (ikkajo series - from the hiden mokuroku) however, are not the techniques we practice most in the Roppokai. Even the "so called" 15-20 or so most basic techniques of the Roppokai (and Kodokai) are not practiced the most. Instead we practice more advanced techniques the most. These have in effect become our new basics.

    Execution of these advanced techniques requires solid kihon skills. However, we do not practice basic techniques (very much) in order to master these basic skills. Instead we practice a variety of advanced techniques, while emphasizing the basic (kihon) elements. This is the way principles are ingrained into the consciousness of the student, and basic skills/abilities are transmitted in the Roppokai.

    After briefly trying a more standardized, basic kata-like approach for while, Okamoto sensei returned to this method because it was much more effective. It is the same way that he learned from Horikawa sensei, and that Horikawa sensei learned from Sokaku Takeda.

    In the longer run this method has proven much more effective for Okamoto sensei. However, a student who has no other basic martial arts experience will have a difficult time applying these more advanced techniques before he has mastered the basics. Those with other experience will naturally resort to other techniques/skills in a real situation, until they become more confident with their aiki. This happened for me after about 4-5 years. And that's not really that long.

    So I still think I'm not all that special. I'm pretty normal, except that I have a lot of determination and high level of commitment to apply myself diligently to my training, so that I can absorb the skills and abilities of my teacher and what he has to teach me. If I can reach a level of proficiency in a relatively short amount of time, then I think others can too.

    Will everyone who studies aikijujutsu become proficient enough to use it in a lethal force confrontation on the street or battlefield? Of course not. But I think most people are capable of it, if they were to believe it, and devote themselves diligently to the task.

    Gambatte ne!

    Brently Keen

    [Edited by Brently Keen on 07-22-2000 at 02:47 AM]

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    Richard wrote:

    "In regards to the the original question.
    The main difference, physically anyway, between jujutsu and aikijujutsu is that in aiki you try to take control of the opponents center right away. This allows you control of the whole body. I've often seen, and experienced, jujutsu techniques that only control the limb, and try to use pain to control the attacker."

    I would agree with this, although even in basic Daito-ryu jujutsu techniques (when done properly) we control or attack the physical center-line and/or center of gravity right away too. Although many jujutsu schools teach techniques which only control the limb or use pain, I don't think these are very good jujutsu techniques. The distinction in my mind is between good and bad jujutsu, not between aikijujutsu and jujutsu.

    Like you said in Yanagi-ryu, you start with basic techniques that include "aiki principles", in Daito-ryu the jujutsu techniques also include these principles, however in my view the application of these principles differs in aikijujutsu techniques.

    "Aiki does achieve this through skeletal locking, though they are much more subtle, less overt, connections that don't always feel like locks. Some cause the opponent to "tense-up", causing the opponent to flex his muscles, thus holding or "locking" the bones in place, giving a connection to the center. Others achieve this through extension, "taking the slack out" of the body between the point of contact and the opponent's center. Still others simply lock the bones so subtley that you hardly notice it happening until your on the ground."

    Again we have a slightly different understanding of what constitutes aiki. And it is only a slight (but perhaps significant) difference. These distinctives perhaps attest to the respective unique qualities of our traditions, so I don't wish to convince anyone of my point of view, as much as just clarify my perspective as a Daito-ryu practitioner.

    I agree that aiki techniques are techniques that attack the senses. I also agree that there are many techniques in both Daito-ryu and Yanagi-ryu that achieve the results you describe. A big difference between aiki and jujutsu in Daito-ryu is how we go about achieving those results.

    But, the primary or most obvious difference in Daito-ryu between aiki and jujutsu is that jujutsu generally relies on skeletal locking and leverage to accomplish it's connection with the opponent's bone structure and center of gravity. Sometimes it's subtle and other times it's more blatant, but jujutsu generally uses kansetsu waza.

    Daito-ryu aiki techniques however, do not rely on skeletal locking or kansetsu waza. Sometimes slight or overt skeletal locking will occur, but it is only a side effect. The technique does not rely on it, nor is it accomplished by it. Any skeletal locking that occurs in the execution of an aiki technique is not the means or cause of accomplishing the technique, but is rather an end or effect of the technique. Daito-ryu aiki waza are fundamentally and essentially different in how they work. The details of which are still secrets of our tradition.

    Regards,

    Brently Keen

    [Edited by Brently Keen on 07-22-2000 at 03:41 AM]

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    Brentley and others,

    Thanks for the detailed replies, but Brentley, I am a bit more confused than ever! Whether you know it or not, you just described the difference between Shindo Yoshin jujitsu and Hakko Ryu jujitsu.

    Also, you seem to imply that there is Daito Ryu jujitsu and Daito Ryu aikijujitsu: "...although even in basic Daito-ryu jujutsu techniques..." and "...in Daito-ryu the jujutsu techniques also include these principles, however in my view the application of these principles differs in aikijujutsu techniques."

    ?

    I'm wondering if the difference may be more of a historical one and less to do with differences of technique/application. I understand that Daito Ryu aikijujutsu was based upon oshikiuchi, a system of self-defense for use within the palace, and jujitsu systems were developed primarily for battlefield usage, outside the palace. What are your thoughts on this?

    Also, I have heard mentioned that the Aizu clan had considerable influence on some of the Okinawan royalty (they allegedly taught their art to them), and that Okinawan ti was a close derivative of Daito Ryu aikijujutsu. The "ti" arts of Okinawa I have heard described as being "some strange form of aikido." Any connection there?

    I appreciate your time in helping me understand and furthering my education!

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

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    Brently,

    Thanx for the invite

    But perhaps I don't understand what you are meaning by a skeletal lock. Though I have yet to have the pleasure of experiencing Okamoto sensei's technique personally, from what I've felt, from yourself and others, and what I've seen on videos, there is very much skeletal locking to the center. I reviewed the tapes I have and can see the connections taking place. Now, I don't mean the overt twisting and locking techniques as in a typical nikyo or kote gaeshi, but very lite minimal locking just setting the bones and joints in place to create a connection to the center. Okamoto sensei appears to achieve this at the very moment of contact. In our school we call this "Commutive Locking"is still defined as a skeletal lock even though you can't feel it and the movements are very very small.

    Please keep in mind I do not do Daito ryu, and can only speak from my limited expierence in Yanagi ryu. I did make a point in my previous post that my opinions are based on "my expierence" in "our school" I do not presume to define all of aikijujutsu. I was only offering another point of view. Daito ryu is different than Yanagi ryu and, I would venture to say, that Roppokai is different than main stream Daito ryu. None the less, it is interesting to learn about how other styles work and view their own techniques. I'm not trying to imply anything whatsoever but in our school we have no "secrets", as my teacher has stated publicly many times. If you want to know how something works, just ask. You might not like the answer, but you can ask. How our techniques work is there for all to see, if you have the eye to see them with. We use no mistique, smoke or mirrors, and hide nothing behind the veil of aiki. Nor do we presume that ours is the only way. I am always eager to learn more, and to share what I have learned.

    [Edited by Richard Elias on 07-23-2000 at 05:21 AM]
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

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    Jeff,

    You bring up some interesting questions. I had hoped that that I would be clarifying my position(s) more - rather than confusing the issue. Sorry, if I've not been helping too much.

    I am quite familiar with Hakko-ryu Jujutsu, but I really know very little about Shindo Yoshin-ryu, so I can't really comment on that comparision.

    Hakko-ryu Jujutsu is actually quite comparable to Daito-ryu Jujutsu. Many Hakko-ryu techniques are almost exact copies of Daito-ryu Jujutsu techniques. There are several techniques in Hakko-ryu that make reference to aiki, however the techniques I have seen and experienced from a number of menkyo kaiden holder's do not include aiki as defined by and practiced in Daito-ryu. The difference between Daito-ryu Jujutsu and Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu that I have been talking about is the same difference between Hakko-ryu Jujutsu and Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu.

    This is actually my understanding of why Ryuho Okuyama named his art Hakko-ryu Jujutsu instead of Hakko-ryu Aikijujutsu. It seems that the shodai soke knew the difference, having trained and studied under Sokaku Takeda. Incidentally, Okuyama had a kyoju dairi in Daito-ryu. He also was a shiatsu practitioner and incorporated his knowledge of tsubo points and meridian theory into the curriculum of his Hakko-ryu Jujutsu system.

    I don't want "to imply" that Daito-ryu has jujutsu & aikijujutsu. Rather, I have been trying to emphatically state the for the record, that Daito-ryu contains both a jujutsu curriculum AND an aikijujutsu curriculum. This is the reason I believe for much of the misunderstanding and confusion about Daito-ryu in particular and aikijujutsu in general, and it's why I have stated often both BC and PC (before crash and post crash) that the two, jujutsu and aikijujutsu are completely different.

    The (aiki) principles that I said also existed in Daito-ryu jujutsu were the principles that Richard was talking about with reference to skeletal locking in various ways. These are principles that Don Angier has popularized through his seminars and video tapes produced by Tony Annesi. These principles have come to be commonly known as "principles of aiki" although more correctly they are just general or universal principles. Even Don has said this.

    Therefore if these principles are "universal" then they will exist in jujutsu as well as in aikijujutsu, as well as in kenjutsu, and other arts. That does not mean that all arts include or use these principles. Nor are they necessarily used in the same way.

    It has recently become my understanding that it is not these principles or the application of these principles that define aiki (in Daito-ryu). Aiki in Daito-ryu is defined by other characteristics that distinguish it from jujutsu. One of the most obvious differences is that jujutsu primarily utilizes skeletal locking and leverage to accomplish it's results. Whereas aiki does not rely on skeletal locking or leverage to accomplish it's results. The difference is WHAT is accomplishing the results, and HOW it is accomplishing the results.

    There may be some historical difference as you say. I've talked about this in passing (BC) before. It is believed by many that aikijujutsu techniques derive from the oshikiuchi and that jujutsu techniques were from the battlefield. I tend to take this view as well, although it's somewhat of an over-simplification.

    The historical difference is not so much a distinction that describes or defines the difference of the two, but rather how the two more likely developed. One on the battlefield and the other inside the castle and/or courtyard, presumably in the near vacinity of the shogun or lord. The Takeda clan was in service to the shogun as bodyguards and/or trainers of the royal family and their closest retainers. It was in and around the very formal context of ettiquette surrounding the shogun, that the oshikiuchi techniques were developed.

    The difference between jujutsu and aiki can be attributed to some (perhaps a large) extent to the difference in the contexts in which they were developed. This at least would account for the very different operating systems. One was developed for the battlefield which has certain "realities" and objectives and the other was developed for protecting the shogun within his castle, which has certain other "realities".

    My belief however, is that those developing the oshikiuchi were also steeped in the realities of the battlefied, they were bushi by both birth and trade, and they certainly brought their developments inside the castle with them outside to the battlefield as well.

    Likewise lessons learned on the battlefield, were brought into the castle too. It's just that battlefield techniques were not always (or hardly ever) appropriate or directly applicable inside, within the confines of the castle walls and the formal ettiquette that was strictly enforced there. The lessons brought from battlefield experience then had to be strategic lessons and principles. The techniques themselves, their operating and delivery systems then had to fit within the context of the "palace reality". Since battlefield techniques wouldn't fit properly, something new had to be developed and those became known as oshikiuchi.

    So the theory is that the essence of aiki was born and developed in this context, one with altogether different rules and allowable options, that forced a letting go of preconceived notions, because this world surrounding the shogun was a very different world. In order to accomplish the objectives within that world, a complete reexamination of what was possible had to take place. Like battlefield techniques, aiki techniques were also born of necessity. And out of that necessity was born the unique methods of aikijujutsu that later proved to be equally effective outside of the castle on the battlefield as well.

    Jeff asked:

    "I'm wondering if the difference may be more of a historical one and less to do with differences of technique/application... {snip} What are your thoughts on this?"

    So to answer your question, I think the difference between jujutsu and aikijujutsu is both a historical/developmental difference, and a technical/application difference. Although the technical/application differences may very well derive from the historical/developmental differences, in my mind however, the primary differences are technical/application differences. And the historical differences are contextual or background differences that contributed to the development of the technical/application differences.

    Wow, I had to reread that to myself several times to make sure I was saying it right. Does that make sense?

    I don't know about any Aizu clan influence on Ryu Kyu (Okinawan) royalty. There may have been some connection to a Minamoto though. But most all of the Okinawan arts are almost completely derived from Chinese sources.

    However, the Motobu-ryu Udon de (te) of Sekichi Uehara which is supposed to be an Okinawan royal tradition may have some link to one rather prominent Minamoto (I forgot which one). There may be some similar aspects to Daito-ryu, just as I believe there are some similar aspects between Kashima-Shinryu and Daito-ryu. Also possibly due to the common Minamoto family orgins. A lot of Udon De does look very similar to aikido, and some of it looks a lot like Wally Jay's Small Circle Jujutsu. Some of the weapons techniques do look like Daito-ryu techniques. The timing appears to be exactly like "ippon dori", or like an Itto-ryu sort of timing. This timing is what some schools refer to as "aiki". Although Uehara sensei's techniques are quite impressive they do not seem to share all the characteristics that make Daito-ryu aiki distinctive.

    As we saw BC in the so called "great aiki debates", the whole subject of aiki and the difference between it and jujutsu (and other arts) is very hard to describe in writing. It is best explained through hands on experience and in the course of training with a qualified instructor. Only then can the distinctions be made clear by demonstration in the context of proper training and practice.

    Hope that helps,

    Brently Keen


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    Dang,

    Go off on a job to Denver/Colorado Springs and the posts go into overdrive. LOL

    Brently, are you chained to your computer. Interesting posts by the way but god I'd have carpel tunnel by now.

    I agree in principle with everything you are saying but reality and principle are often different things. Let me explain.....
    ___________________________________________________________
    You stated:

    “I agree that fine motor skills and coordination are impaired when under psychochemical stress, and the execution of aiki requires a precision that is only possible with a calm and emotionally detached mindset that is not impaired by such stress. BUT, proper Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu training is designed to facilitate the attributes (proper mindset) necessary to render the effects of psychochemical stress as negligible. That is among its primary purposes and objectives.”

    &

    “One of the first things you will become able to do as you become proficient in aikijujutsu is to remain confident, calm and relaxed even while under duress. It is a characteristic side effect of training in aikijujutsu. The adept aikijujutsu practitioner is trained in such a way that prepares him to not be adversly effected psychochemically by stress.”
    __________________________________________________________________


    Brently, that sounds great but......unmentioned is the fact that samurai were indoctrinated with the reality of death in combat from the beginning of their training ( often late childhood). They were spiritually and psychologically prepared for death in ways totally foreign to modern christians in a post feudal era. Dying wasn’t some spiritual abstraction or faroff eventuality to them. The inevitable reality of death and dying in war was all around them in their society and religious indoctrination. As warriors it permeated their being in a way that the average modern martial artist cannot begin to relate to. The type of training pursued in a classical dojo reflected a psychological mindset and societal reality that is virtualy non-existent today in the west. It is almost exclusively modern military veterans who have served in combat, or metropolitan police that have any realistic exposure to the level of psychochemical stress familiar to a feudal era samurai. This reality is why Takamura Yukiyoshi abandon the purely classical methods of teaching Shindo Yoshin ryu jujutsu and modified its curriculum. His aim was first and foremost modern street practical self defense taught in a classical dojo environment. Achieving this aim required a significant curriculum change that addressed the environmental realities and psychological make up of the society he was aiming to teach. He did not change the curriculum of his ancestors martial traditions frivolously. Five to ten years of intense investigation and study were implemented before this decision was finally formalized.

    To imagine that the “average” martial arts student of today trained ONLY in a classical Daito ryu dojo would be able to survive a violent street encounted is in my experience unrealistic. Especially if he is only allowed to use aiki no waza techniques. It was interesting that you quoted my close friend James Williams in response to my position. We have discussed this topic inside and out. If you ask him this question straight, he will side with me. Ask Ken Good at the Surefire Institute. He will side with me as well because we covered this very topic in discussion only several weeks ago.

    Surely you are familiar with Peyton Quinn. Ask him what he thinks. I wonder how well a student only classically trained in Daito ryu would fare against “The Bulletman” . It would be an enlightening experience regardless of the outcome, I promise.

    I’m not trying to be petulant and I’m not knocking Daito ryu. You know I have only the highest admiration for Daito ryu and its instructors like Okamoto Sensei and Kondo Sensei. ( Remember earlier that I said the problem wasn’t with aikijujutsu but with the humans trying to learn it.) You see, this topic is very passionate with me. I know first hand what a violent attack is like psychologically and physically. Any violent attack is a life altering ordeal. To underestimate the skill and training required to meet it can be the omega of your life.

    Please remember that I am also talking about “the average” student out there and this from the perspective of a teacher. There are always those gifted or exceptionally talented that break all the rules. I have several of these in my dojo as students. But this discussion is not about them. As an instructor of both jujutsu and aikijujutsu it is my responsability to consider the person of average talent and above average motivation as my benchmark.

    ____________________________________________________________

    Richard Elias wrote:

    I don't believe that, for the most part, just anybody is cut out for this (no punn intended) or the "higher level" aikijujutsu. I've seen those that, regardless of the "qualified teacher, a willingness to learn, proper training and practice" will never really be able to use aikijujutsu to defend themselves in a real situation, or have the level of bodily control to do them. Some people just have fears that they can't get over.”

    ____________________________________________________________

    I liked Richard Elias’s post’s and agree overall with his observations, especially the one above. I also might add that we are good friends and frequent training partners. ( He is a student of mine in SYR and he my sempai in Yanagi ryu. ) Richard is no average student. He is in fact one of the most talented martial artists I have ever met. In fact, several of Don Angiers students easily fit this discription. No offense Rich but if I judged you, John, Joe, Nick etc.. as the average student, it would raise the bar so high for everyone else that I'd never find any students.

    ____________________________________________________________

    I might be mistaken but I believe it was Hirokazu Kanazawa of JKA fame that was asked this question about his hitherto unknown training in Tai Chi:

    "Sensei. Which art do believe is superior, Karate or Tai chi?"

    He responded:

    "Karate is one of the finest martial arts for human beings to study. After studying Tai Chi I think maybe it is a martial art for super human beings"


    Respectfully,

    [Edited by Toby Threadgill on 07-25-2000 at 04:45 PM]

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    Garsh, y’all speak so good and so smart like too.

    Hey Toby - have any luck with that question I asked a wile ago about changes in SYR? Just askin’....
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

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    Brentley,

    Thank you VERY much for taking the time to explain that to me! It does clear up a lot of confusion for me. I find the topic fascinating.

    Thanks again. I will have additional questions in the next few days - no time right now to get into them (just brought my wife home from the hospital today from surgery - she's going to be fine - and am also hosting a visiting master at my dojo this week. Time is at a premium).

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu


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    Aye, Doug----right y'are. This is some serious contemplative stuff! When I was a young up-n-comin basketball boy I never got the satisfaction of rainin on the lesser guys that I did from having my ass kicked by the real boys. They were the ones who raised my game,who brought me "more high." Same moreso in budo. My respectful compliments both literary and budo technically to the gentlemen above---Brentley, Richard, Toby, Jeff, et al.

    Great thread! Great reading. Thank you all!

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    Toby-san,

    I'm not so much interested in debating this with you, as I stated before, my intentions are simply to state and clarify my views as a Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu pratitioner. We clearly have different perspectives based on our respective experience, the unique traditions we study and teachers we've trained under.

    While it's true that the samurai were raised and indoctrinated in a different time and culture, I don't believe it's pertinent to what I was saying. I was talking about proper Daito-ryu training and instruction as practiced nowadays by modern martial artists.

    My own experience as well as the experience of many of my fellow Roppokai members is that the Daito-ryu training method is such that any normal person who dedicates themselves to diligently training in the Daito-ryu system can develop certain skills and attributes - including the ability to remain calm and resolute even while under extreme duress. It is just as much a characteristic of aikijujutsu today as it was during the feudal era. It is something that is a fundamental part of our tradition that has been handed down.

    Toby wrote:

    "To imagine that the “average” martial arts student of today trained ONLY in a classical Daito ryu dojo would be able to survive a violent street encounted is in my experience unrealistic."

    Why?

    I am not imagining anything about what I've said. Nor does it make any difference to me if a Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu practitioner studies ONLY Daito-ryu or if he's studied other arts. Either way, my original assertion stands that it doesn't take an infinitely long time to become proficient enough to use aiki in a real situation, nor does it take a super human. It only requires a serious dedication, a good qualified teacher, a willingness to learn (and believing you can learn), and proper training and practice.

    "Especially if he is only allowed to use aiki no waza techniques."

    Huh? You lost me on this one, Toby. Why would anyone only be allowed to use aiki no waza in a violent street encounter? In a street situation there are no rules - surely you know this. I'll repeat myself here merely for emphasis (and perhaps others who are reading): Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu as system includes both jujutsu and aiki. Daito-ryu as a system includes both jujutsu and aikijujutsu.

    Any Daito-ryu practitioner would be foolish if he limited himself only to aiki no jutsu waza in a violent street situation. He has to do whatever is most appropriate.

    I've been talking all this time about aikijujutsu. Please let me emphasize the meaning of "ju" in aikijujutsu, it means soft and flexible. This is true of the application of strategy and technique as well as of the techniques themselves. In any encounter whether it be in the dojo or on the street, in life or relationships, in business or in politics or war. We have to do what is most appropriate for the specific situation. Every situation is different, and if we do something other than what is appropriate, then surely we'll experience the consequences.

    In the Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu training method that I am familiar with, there is an emphasis on "oyo waza", oyo waza are applied techniques. Training in oyo waza is specifically designed to develop the skills and abilities to be flexible according to the specific situation.

    "It was interesting that you quoted my close friend James Williams in response to my position. We have discussed this topic inside and out."

    No, I did not quote James in response to your position.

    I was talking about the purpose of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu being designed for close quarter combat with weapons. And that it was no different from other other koryu bujutsu in this regard except that aikijujutsu tended to be more subtle and sophisticated. I simply cited James' article as one that speaks well about that subject (as well as the historical development of aikijujutsu, and it's practical effectiveness in an edged weapons environment).

    Again Toby, I'm not trying to argue with you on this, I don't need to bring in other "experts", both of whom I also know and have trained with to "side with me" or validate my experience and perspective as a Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu practitioner.

    Respectfully,

    Brently Keen



    [Edited by Brently Keen on 07-27-2000 at 03:05 AM]

  12. #27
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    Default P.S.

    Tai Chi might be for super humans, I've no idea. But whether it is or not, it doesn't matter. Aikijujutsu is quite different from Tai Chi.

    I still insist that proficiency in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu does not require super human qualities or capabilities, even if it does eventually develop them.

    Brently Keen



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    Brently,

    I appreciate your opinions. I really do. We can simply agree to disagree here.

    I am extremely passionate about individual safety and the realistic application of martial training in a dangerous confrontation. I speak from actual experience, experience that is supported by others with greater practical knowledge than myself. It is up to the individual readers here to examine these posts and either form an opinion based on these or hopefully seek out further information on this topic.

    This is a very serious topic as ultimately it is each individual reader whose neck is potentially hanging in the balance here, not yours or mine.

    Sincerely,



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    Default "no, don't jump in the middle of this..."

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 19:29.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Default

    I don't mean to complicate things more...
    But I thought I would throw out a more clear cut definition of aikijujutsu. I realize that it is defined differently by different schools. This is how we view it at our school.

    Aikijujutsu as defined in our school is "creating a jujutsu situation through the use of aiki technique or principle" With, as I stated on an earlier post, aiki in our school being defined as "those methods or techniques that decieve or effect the opponent's senses". And jujutsu being the physical techniques used to nullify the attack and subdue the opponent.

    To elaborate. Where aiki effects the mind and therefore the body, jujutsu is applied physical technique to the body alone. Aikijujutsu, then, is using a technique to effect the senses, so as to set up a physical defence technique. Some of the techniques used to effect the opponent are done physically. We have within our system, aiki technique that alone can disrupt or influence the opponent enough to cause him to fall, throw himself to the ground, or nullify the attack. Some without touching the opponent. The physical techniques can also be done without the mental ones.

    So, in our school, there are aiki techniques, there are jujutsu techniques, and they are brought together in aikijujutsu. These are not necessarily taught as seperate arts, rather, the physical and mental are taught progressively as the students ability and understanding evolves.

    Some of the aiki techniques in our system absolutely require that the opponent is giving a dedicated, full speed, realistic attack. Needless to say this makes them difficult, and somtimes dangerous, to practice (especially when weapons are involved). The opponent will also adjust mentally to some of the aiki techniques, making the number of times you can practice it limited.

    I have no idea if this gels at all with what other schools teach.

    Bently,
    With all due respect, if someone does have "serious dedication, a good qualified teacher, a willingness to learn (and believing you can learn), and proper training and practice." and has gone through the trouble of finding such a teacher, and taking on such challenges he is by comparison above "average". That includes you. The average martial arts student doesn't move or won't commute great distances to train will a particular teacher. Nor would they travel to another country, or arrange for a teacher come to their country, just to train with them. Such dedication to anything is above the average. Think what you want of yourself, but you are not average- no insult intended. I think in this respect we are talking about the difference between a martial artist and one who does martial arts. I have, in my twenty years of persuing the martial arts, seen many "average" students. Very few ever evolve to becoming a martial artist. That's not to say they can't, but they don't. For many the infection we call martial arts just doesn't take. For the rest of us there's no cure.



    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

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