Effectiveness of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu

[Dan Harden]

I figured After the last go round pushin buttons regarding Daito ryu and Aiki. I would push back a little....... :-)

It is by far....
Easier to get your goat then mine


Dan

P.S. the info on the "lack of" battlefield sword use came from Karl Friday...... he was qouting recent findings. It got much play on the Iai list. In all seriousness I consider it to be ridiculous. Though the fellows there are quite sincere. I just couldn't resist the illogic it sets up.


1. The tengu taught him to fight?..hmmm

Ok that can't be true

2. So, he learned it from his battlefield experience

oops..our history guru's say they didn't use them much

3. So,He made the whole thing up. Which of course means anyone can and be considered valid.

Does that mean these arts have no basis in experiental facts. That they are all simply theory?

Facinating stuff


deep breaths Toby...deep breaths

I am going back to trimming my prairie style vaulted ceiling
with the loveliest quarter sawn oak...
nighty night


[Edited by Dan Harden on 07-31-2000 at 05:45 PM]

[Richard Elias]

Mark F.

"I was passing on what myself and others have learned. Ask anyone who has done other arts such as judo, besides Aiki JJ and I think they would say the same thing."

Just to clarify, as I stated in my response, in my seach for the art that's right for me I have had a wide variety of experience in different martial arts including but not confined to Tae kwon do, kook sul won, kali/escrima, muay thai, kung fu, 2-styles of ninjujutsu, jujutsu, naginata, capoeira, aikido...the list goes on. Though I've been persuing the arts for 20yrs, I've actually only been studying aikijujutsu formally for 5yrs.

I used to be more involved with the martial arts "community" but I guess I've gotten kinda jaded over the years. Or maybe I was always like that and just dicided not to play with the other kids anymore. I know that sounds real negative, but it's not intended that way. My only motivation is training and learning, and right now I am very focused. Everything outside of that falls short of interesting me. And besides, if I was really not "accepting" I wouldn't be posting at all. My only "agenda", as far as I know, is to share and learn. There have been those that try to maintain a false mystique about the arts, eluding to secrets or privileged knowledge that, quite frankly, just isn't there. This kinda bugs me a little. I make no excuses for the way I am, or how I view the arts. As I stated before everything I say is "In my humble opinion, based on my limited experience".

Respectfully and not too seriously,

Danny,

Illogic? So that's why you study aiki jujutsu.

Yuck, yuck, yuck. I don't own any goats?

Tobs



[Edited by Toby Threadgill on 07-31-2000 at 06:18 PM]

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[Richard Elias]

I can't speak for the other styles, but in our school sword work is VERY domninant, and is an integral part of the empty hand system. Most of our major techniques have a kenjutsu application. Some have thier origin as a sword technique, especially the aiki. It could be said that ours is predominatly a sword school, but the jujutsu is what gets shown and requested the most.

[Dan Harden]

Ditto here

All kidding aside. Sword is prerequisite to all training with me. It is first and foremost both in its place in weekly training and in our overall outlook. It would be a mistake to overlook its effects and benefits on taijutsu.
I cannot help but to say that Koryu is the place to start sword training and any version of Aikido type "Aiki"-ken the last.


Dan

[MarkF]

And to think I was attempting to inject some humor here. All seriousness aside, it was a mawkish attempt at your little stab in your original post, and aside with the comments concerning the battlefield (which I think I said I agreed), it was meant to be humorous. I injected an answer to your own bit, Dan. How you mistook what I said for serious stuff, especially after the "great aiki wars," I woudn't hazard to guess, and I certainly was making no comparisons, just being my usual self, sarcastic and full of cynicism. Nothing more. But, since you like to play judo once in a while, it does seem to be a good place to attempt aiki techniques, even if it is the rigid stuff. I teach kata to anyone who wants it, and to those who don't. I do teach atemi, kyusho, kata ate, etc., so you surmise all judo clubs the same, well they are not. Remember from your judo days the name John Cornish? He studied kata with Kyuzo Mifune and Sumiyuki Kotani, both 10dans. Even here you will have to admit Mifune's center "jumps" out at you, even in photographs, and he was said to be "an empty uwagi" to those who trained with him. One would not have been surprised to do a technique repeatedly more than one hundred times, because you didn't "center."

Anyway, I am sorry you did't see my replay as it was meant.

Sincerely,

[MarkF]

Originally posted by Richard Elias:

There have been those that try to maintain a false mystique about the arts, eluding to secrets or privileged knowledge that, quite frankly, just isn't there. This kinda bugs me a little.

Richard,
I couldn't agree more on this particular view some take on aiki. My background is judo, and there is thrity-seven years of that, and I wouldn't change a thing, with a small exception. I wish I had approached it with a more mature take on it, but that's what happens when you are a kid. I grew up on shiai, and then when I could not do it anymore, I looked for more, and you know what? It was there all the time. I just had to push the envelope a little. Although age has a lot to so with what one does, it does not mean I can't learn, and I have. I approach it much differently than I used to. Even my vocabulary has changed, and what I convey to a student concerning breathing, centering, and relaxing has taken on new purpose, and that I can thank one or two here for. At least, I can approach things with a bigger purpose.

[Dan Harden]

Ok, no kidding

I think Mifune exhibited what could be called "Aiki" wouldn't you? While it may not be manifested in the same way as other arts, on its own level his relaxed centeredness and ability to connect and manipulate was wonderful to watch. The fact that he utilized it "oustide" of Kata was a testement to his great skill.

As far as thinking that "all Judo clubs are the same" does not apply here. No way, not even close. Just look at these views on Aiki. You have several people who have been involved in Aikijujutsu for 10-15 years maybe longer (before it was a "fad") and we can't agree on several points.

BTW
I did take your post in your usual (but not always) sarcastic cynical self. Truly I think that many here are cynical and Jaded. It is why several people come across strongly at times. I am sure we have all have seen too little, in too many "artists" to think much of anything we hear. I would say that goes for dozens of people here. It is why things can get heated. You have several people who have found something that works, something that is deep and they try to convey that. Put together dozens of opions like that and it gets lively.
Add to that the fact that several people here are in arts that are decidedly edgy, that is, they DO care about effectiveness (of course not only that)and they are decidedly uninterested in fluff. Which narrows the focus a bit.
Toby, myself, Nathan and whom ever may be lurking are quite interested in the making, using, and testing of a sword to our and it's utmost potential. This goes beyond the way many people who pick up the sword view it today. This in turn creates a certain "view" in the way we see the arts. A view that is not always shared by those in the sword arts.
If you read between the lines you find a balance of healthy self confidance, and cyniscism, balanced with a tentative searching and openess eitherwise we wouldn't be here.

So, I happen to respect the place your cyniscism is coming from. A place called "experience"

Dan




[Edited by Dan Harden on 08-01-2000 at 08:27 AM]

[MarkF]

Well, thanks for understnading. Age has a funny way of affecting what you read. Mifune did have something which may have been aiki, and so did many others. There is much being lost today, and I feel for the average judoka who does not know there is more than three waza and the Dai Nippon Judo Championships out there. The work it would take, to learn anew is just not in my future so I do take what many say here to heart, at times. I spoke with someone a few months ago who does know you and says you have good technique. On the whole of it, that is enough as I trust this person's word. I have been attempting to find a way to bring Kano's kenjutsu back into the syllabus, as it never truly left, but almost all left it. Yes, you're right. Not all aiki styles are the same, and that is true, dojo to dojo. It certainly is true of judo, although sometimes you wonder if anyone knows anything besides nagewaza.

[Lance]

I am majoring in Criminal Justice and probably will be entering some form of law enforcement in the future. Meanwhile I am searching for a martial art while I am finishing out my education.
Now that the background has been stated, here is the question. Is Aiki Jujitsu effective in a sense that it could help me survive in an unarmed struggle on the street? I am about 5'9" and 135lbs. so I need some type of tool to offset the balance.

Thanks,
Lance Clanton

[MarkF]

Welcome to E-budo, Lance.
I suppose it depends on just how serious you are, but I do not know what is availabe over your way. Probably the best thing to do is to find an instructor with whom to train, and not a martial art. Many things play into this such as time constraints, commuting, and what is available in your area. Aiki jujutsu is hard to find, although someone will have more info than I do. Since your background will be in LE, judo and jujtsu are things to consider. Anything with grappling involved is a must in any LEO's career.

But the answer to your question of aikijutsu is yes. It has everything you need and some you don't, but it is hard to find a "good" school, and it takes more time to learn than the two I have mentioned. But if it gets down to availability, judo and jujutsu are generally easy to find.

[Lance]

I plan to go to Japan in a couple of years after I get my degree with the JET program hopefully. That is why I am considering this hard to find art. I will hopefully be in the area that offers it and will have the opportunity to learn it there. I plan to stay about 4-5 years to learn it. Are there any other opinions?

Lance Clanton

[Edited by Lance on 08-11-2000 at 10:13 AM]

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[Lance]

Thanks for your replies. The information is truly needed.

Lance Clanton