Effectiveness of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu

[Kit LeBlanc]

LANCE,

As an LEO and martial artist, I think I can give you some advice. MARKF said it right, some form of grappling art is a necessity. Arts that are kick/punch are limited in application, though a grappling art that icludes atemi is ideal. A grappling art which also makes allowances for the fact that the opponent (suspect) may have a weapon is even better.

I remember reading in HE Davey's Aiki jujutsu book that one of the Takeda's said that police will be using "jujutsu" when arresting suspects, based on the dynamic involved in seizing and arresting a subject. They seemed to specifically say that this is not "Aiki."

Though my training is in submission grappling and koryu torite, from what I have experienced on the street I think that Aikijujutsu, as has been previously described in this forum, would be a good art for law enforcement. It contains subtle aspects (more Aiki oriented) which may come in handy for less resistive suspects, and jujutsu methods which may come into play with seriously motivated and aggressive suspects. It seems that it may be adapatable to varying levels of force (as most jujutsu should be.)

I don't know how much Aikijujutsu focusses on groundwork, but as an LEO your primary goal in non-lethal uses of force will be to get the bad guy off his feet and controlled on the ground. I personally see a subejct on his stomach on the ground and you pinning with a knee to the small of his back as "groundfighting," some do not. Still, you will nees relaible methods for controlling someone on his stomach on the ground, on his back on the ground, on his knees on the ground, etc.

Hope this helps to point you in the right direction.

KIT LEBLANC

Feel free to E mail me at kitleblanc@aol.com if you have further questions.

[Yojimbo558]

Hi Lance,

As others have indicated, a grappling style for your intended career is essential.

I would recommend that you look at anything from Aikijujutsu, Jujutsu, Bujinkan, or Genbukan while you are in Japan.

Stay away from sportive styles, while Karate & Judo have excellent pieces, they also have problems, in that if you pick Karate you learn striking but not grappling...which when it comes to arresting is a must! As for Judo, striking ( while atemi waza is apart of Judo...is not largely taught ), as a result you ( if you get into competition ) could be come programmed not to strike since in competition you are not allowed to do so...as a result blocking strikes is also less likely to be successful on your part ( since in competition doesn't allow it ).

Aikido ( there are some deviations ) should be avoided since it utilizes alot of co-operation. Unless you have access to Yoshinkan Aikido which would also serve you needs, as this depends less on co-operation.

The styles I recommended in the beginning, all teach striking in combination with grappling. Also these styles will teach you how to defend against numberous weapons as well as in their use.

I feel in my own biased opinion that any of these styles would be a great investment in your ability to go home alive at the end of your shift.

Eric Bookin

[Kit LeBlanc]

NATHAN,

I would like to respond to your post RE: adrenalin dump, I agree and disagree.

First off, I do not think that ANYONE, experienced combatant or budoka, even a "serious" budoka, is immune to surprise. I honestly believe that to think so is to be complacent. Anyone can be caught with their pants down, the idea is to be aware of that and try to avoid it. The other is to be able shorten your recovery time from surprise, but that will only occur with experience. You can and will be surprised, especially if you think you cannot be. Taking it to its illogoical conclusion and believing one is "un-surprisable" due to "extensive training," can getyou killed without even a warning. Every day I have been to work I critique what I do in dangerous situations, and sometimes I have to be honest and say "if that guy had wanted me, he would have had me." THAT is how I try to beat the odds, not by thinking that the odds won't beat me.


Also, you SHOULD ALWAYS get the adrenalin dump in a combatively stressful situation. That is a biological adaptation which ocurs in all healthy humans. Controlling the effects can be developed with training and moreso with experience(which is what you are saying). My personal opinion is that dojo budo training, ANY dojo budo training, rarely fully prepares someone for an actual encounter. Even the "serious" budoka. Serious training helps, but training for the thing and the thing itself are very different. The operative factor in the actual combative encounter is motivated interpersonal aggression, which simply does not occur to the same level in training, even with a guy you hate! If you are interested in this you have I am sure read On Killing by Grossman. Facing real, potentially lethal interpersonal human aggression does weird things to those exposed.

Last, my take is that the high dump stress spikes at the beginning of the encounter, then fades where more subtlety can come into play. You are there in the encounter, !BANG! the heart rate goes up, you draw your weapon and assess, THEN things plateau and you react according to the situation. This can occur in a milisecond's time, where you shoot/don't shoot, realize that he has a gun/knife but just dropped it,is not attacking, etc.

Realize that above I am referring to immediately lethal force encounters. Not all encounters develop from non-confrontational (say, moving the drunk along) to confrontational, many go the reverse. Aiki certainly will be of help in the non-confrontational/semi-confrontational encounters, less so in the immediate explosively violent ones.

Now if the encounter starts turning against you, you spike again. "Oh man, this guy wants to kill me!" and then plateau while you deal with that eventuality. Each new event/turn of events is dealt with as a new spike until the mind assesses what is occurring and realizes it has training files to deal with it. Panic is a short circuit and you can't access those files. With experience, the pathways become smoother and assessing takes less time.

We cannot know what this is like until we have faced it. I think with experience, or with the help of those with experience, we can develop SOME genuine confidence in our training. But the vitally important empirical confidence in ourselves comes from training AND experience.

For these reasons, I personally believe that the ideal path for a budoka is in a service where they face interpersonal human aggression and potentially lethal situations as a professional. That is the best way to refine one's budo for its originally intended purpose. It also provides repeat and ongoing validation and adaptation of training and theory to actual application. Non-professional "combatant" serious budoka are to be lauded for their efforts and accomplishments, but that does not mean they are in fact experienced combatants. The two used to be the same but have been divorced for some time.

Kit LeBlanc

[Eric Montes]

Lance,
I normally don't cruise this forum since I tend to concentrate on weapon arts, but I think Kit is right on regarding one's response in a crisis situation.

I primarily wanted to respond as a former JET who practiced in Japan.

You are able to request an area where you would like to be assigned but that is no guarantee that you will get it. But this a topic for separate forum. Email me privately if you have any questions.

Eric

[Lance]

Thanks agains guys. I appreciated the information.

[Nathan Scott]

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[Kit LeBlanc]

Nathan,

Still I disagree. I admit some advantage can be gained thru proper training and development of zanshin, but I personally doubt that even "instructor level" budoka (this is not a valid designation. Instructor level can mean very different things in different dojo)will ever develop it purely thru dojo training. Remember the bushi trained in the dojo THEN tested and refined it on the battlefied to a far greater extent than we do today, even those of us in the field in law enforcement, whatever.

Even when fully developed, no one maintains zanshin at all times. Fatigue, senory overload, stress, etc. all play a major part in what happens in the real world. It is a very different thing to comprehend these concepts and work at them in the dojo, and when one is out and about in daily life as a civilian trying to avoid confrontations, than it is when you are armed and uniformed and your job is going in to deal specifically with confrontations. You would think that the latter people would have it perfected to a far greater degree than dojo budoka. But after 13 years in budo and nearly four in law enforcement, I still noticed where and when I have had "openings" in my zanshin that may have been fatal if the circumstances had been different.

As an accomplished budoka and experienced professional in handling confrontations, one's zanshin may be developed far beyond the rank and file budo practitioners, even your idea of "serious" budoka (again, I have a problem with that designation...). You can still be had, and you had better always be aware of that and be honest with yourself when you were caught wih the proverbial pants down.(Which mindset will further develop zanshin.)

Kit LeBlanc

[Nathan Scott]

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[Nathan Scott]

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[Kit LeBlanc]

Nathan,

Please call me Kit, unless I am being too forward in usig your first name. I just realized you are the moderator here and don't want to step on any toes.

I think we do agree more than disagree. I understand what you are saying, and have seen it/experienced it myself in many situations.

I guess where I come from is that zanshin, true zanshin as you described it, comes from a combination of training and actual experience. Budoka without extensive "live" experience of this in a regular and recurring format(i.e. not just a few bar fights...) will not develop it to the same degree as will one with both training and experience.

I am also very interested in this subject and would love to discuss it more via e-mail. I understand you train with some LEO's and would like to hear their take as well.

Kit LeBlanc

[Brently Keen]

Nathan wrote:

"I realized that I do not always get the adrenaline dump when confronted with danger, or when 'ambushed' by roommates/classmates. It is usually when I can see a combatively stressful situation developing, or after it has already developed and is unresolved."

I've found this to be true in my own experience. Especially when I can see it developing and my mind starts to play with the possibilities - and I'm not talking about fear either, just excitement or anticipation. We're talking a classic case of nerves here.

"I think that a serious budoka can achieve a state where they are not open to being startled, and can remain calm during an initial surprise attack... <snip> I also think that mushin (no mind)/fudoshin (immovable, unperturbable mind) can be kept while initiating an attack/ambush that is not entirely expected by the opponent."

Agreed. Certainly everyone can be caught off-guard sometimes. But for the serious/experienced budoka it's not going to be as often or likely. It's not that they can't be surprised either, it's just that they'll remain relatively unperturbed by the surprise, it's not going to have the same psychostress induced response. When someone surprises me I usually smile and think, "good, that was good. I wasn't expecting that" and/or I'll thank them mentally for showing me something, but I'll remain unbothered by whatever it was. For me this is a classic example of the mind being flexible like the "ju" in aikijujutsu, and like a guourd floating on the water.

"However, should the contact continue past the initial engagement, or the danger be seen in advance so that the mind has time to evaluate the threat level properly, I would guess this would be when anyone would expect an adrenaline dump..."

In my experience, the 2nd half of this is actually more true. It's when the danger can be seen in advance and you have time to think about it that the adrenalin is going to kick in more. In my view, as contact continues or escalates past the initial engagement, the body actually recovers somewhat from the initial shock/nerves (assuming you survive it) and then proceeds more or less automatically as one's training kicks in. You do what needs to be done. For me it seems to be a question of what is more compelling, my situation or my objective?

For any endeavor to be successful you must focus on your objective. Your mindset is all important. Prior to an engagement you cannot be anticipating, worrying, imagining, watching in horror, or whatever, because then your mind will be captured by all that, and you'll have difficulty responding appropriately. You must stay focused on a present objective.

"In conclusion, assuming that others find this evaluation reasonable, it might be said that during an initial self defense engagement, it should be possible to use the refined subtle movements of Aikijujutsu/Aiki no jutsu. But during combat/sustained high threat engagements the exponent will
need to fall back on more gross, fundamental Jujutsu techniques and strikes."

I find your evaluation quite reasonable. If you don't have time to think, and you have trained to a sufficient level, I see no problem using the refined subtle movements of aikijujutsu. Aiki is primarily a defensive art - it was made for and excells in these types of situations. In my mind, the only time an exponent needs to "fall back" on more gross, fundamental jujutsu techniques and strikes is when he is not sufficiently skilled in the first place to use aiki.

In a combat situation or sustained high threat engagement, falling back on aikijujutsu seems to me to be a much more practical alternative. Since the stakes are higher, I cannot afford to give my opponent any opportunity to counter any gross, fundamental jujutsu techniques. In a prolonged engagement I also need to be as efficient as possible by not wasting energy.

The rule is to do and use whatever is more appropriate for the situation at hand. In some instances, jujutsu may be more appropriate. Sometimes aiki may not appropriate, needed, or necessary. But even then, I will not resort to "gross fundamental jujutsu". Rather I will resort to more refined basic/fundamental jujutsu. I figure I still cannot afford to give my opponent any opportunities, and I still need to be as efficient as possible. You can't be too simple and/or gross and expect to get away with it.

To quote a maxim of Sokaku Takeda: "Even an expert can be defeated by a layman if the expert is negligent." I take this to mean I can defeat an expert as well as be defeated by someone of lesser skill. Gross, to me implies negligence, over-extension, and inappropriateness.

"For instance, I'm sure that LEO's become less prone to adrenaline dumps during similar threat level confrontations the more they gain (hopefully) successful experience in handling them."

Agreed.

Brently Keen

[Edited by Brently Keen on 08-15-2000 at 12:07 AM]

[MarkF]

Originally posted by Brently Keen

I take this to mean I can defeat an expert as well as be defeated by someone of lesser skill. Gross, to me implies negligence, over-extension, and inappropriateness.

I agree with Brently here an with Kit as well. Condition your reflexes all you want but there is going to be something which may defeat this "condtioning." Frankly, the term "instructor level" means nothing. It only means one is instructing in controlled situations.

I won't pretend to have completely conditioned mind/body to easily react to even the most overt, similar event, but I think if someone like Kit, who does this everyday, still feels the adrenaline dump even after repeated situations of "surprise," than surely, no matter what level you are at, at sometime, you will feel it, but you will also hope to bottle up the surprise and do a workman like job of, well, the job. It is far safer to know you don't have all the answers than think you do. No one is that good.

Regards,
Mark

[Nathan Scott]

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[KIT]

Mark F,

Thanks for underscoring my point.

I do believe that training and experience will mitigate the effects of adrenalin, even in a fast moving situation. Just this week I had a man start to pull a gun on me from a holster contraption he had. I credit my budo and LE training with being able to see this happening like it was slo-mo, drop my baton, which I had deployed because initially I was going into an active Domestic Violence situation that sounded very heated, and get my muzzle on him.

In this case I was on him quicker than he was able to get his weapon out. I also credit my budo training with NOT shooting him where he stood (which would have been legally justified), because he never fully produced the weapon and never raised it.

You bet I got an adrenalin dump! But I was able to control it and make the correct TACTICAL decision, NOT react out of "adrenalin intoxication" and fear that I was going to get shot. The same thing has occurred before with other subjects and other weapons (knives, even a sword once...). I get the adrenal response, but I can control it better through having had such experiences repeatedly.

And experience is key here. I worked in hotel security for several years before entering law enforcement, and had several occasions to engage in physical confrontations (one of them the worst fight of my life, period!). When I was even several years into that job, I always got the dump before and felt the effects after fights. My hands shook, my breathing and heart rate went up, knees felt weak and I moved faster and hit harder than I have ever done in training.

Nowadays, even after the gun incident described above, I don't really get it so much anymore. It has been a long time since I felt the effects strongly. This is a normal adaptation to experience.

My experience has sort of grown along with my training (I had about 3 years in martial arts when I started at the hotel job). But to be honest, when I became an officer I had nine years in martial arts and I started getting the dump strongly again when I hit the streets.

Why? Performance anxiety in front of my brother and sister officers, for one , especially my training officer, plus the fact that now these weren't just drunks I was fighting with but REAL BAD GUYS, guys who had done prison time, killed people, etc. And a lot of these guys were carrying weapons. In scientific terms the "pucker factor" went way up.

I think my chief disagreement with Nathan is that budo training alone, I don't care how "serious," will produce the same effect. In my experience I do feel that training with wooden weapons in koryu kata has been more stressful than grappling and Chinese boxing was, but not anywhere close to anything I have faced in actual circumstances, particularly not when REAL knives and firearms have been involved. What is lacking is aggression, I mean the palpable feeling of antipathy or crazed motivation, not a training partner attacking "really hard."

I would encourage people in martial arts to challenge what they think they know about confrontational dynamics and zanshin to go on a few ride-alongs with their local police agency. They will see that they completely miss things that the officer catches on to as a matter of course when simply driving down the street. They will also be surprised at the way confrontations and physical altercations develop.

Both Nathan and Brently mention experience in potentially lethal encounters, so I think they may be above the rank and file martial artist in terms of experience. But most "combative" martial artists will be in for a lot of surprises, and I think much learning.

Does that make it more clear?

Kit LeBlanc

[Nathan Scott]

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