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Thread: Effectiveness of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu

  1. #106
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    It seems to me that there were other avenues - that the method of learning in the strict soke-sensei-student, Shu-Ha-Ri may be more a modern way to pass on "traditional" arts?

    I note that researchers have written how time-in-tutelage grew considerably in modern times, that previously it was much less time months or a few years, before licenses were given, even menkyo kaiden.

    Also, I'd have to check Friday but was in Kamiizumi that gave out a certificate to a peer after a very short time of study? This makes sense - fellow experienced warriors sharing knowledge, picking things up from each other, or perhaps one as the elder brother and the other the younger, and the teaching of the elder more a "finishing school" or rounding out of a total education. Very different from the sensei-student relationship portrayed today.

    The story of Yagyu Munenori(? or another....) giving the certificate to the guy with NO training based on his assessment of the man's attainment in the mental aspect of the "Way"...

    Or Musashi's having "no teacher?" While clearly not exactly true, certainly in his writings much more of a focus on personal training,insight, and understanding rather than devotion to the words of a teacher....

  2. #107
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    Most of Kamiizumi sensei's students only had a year or two time in with him before her graduated them. They all had seen combat before and he was more of a finishing school. If memory serves (and it seldom does) in Yagyu Shinkage-ryu they used to teach Empi no kata first because it was the core of the ryu. Each of the sets after that extrapolated a core concept from Empi. However as samurai got soft having not seen combat they needed to teach basic sword handling and cutting and the Sangaku got moved to the front because it taught basic cutting and good solid sword use. Other arts like Jikishinkage-ryu used the Hojo to build the stamina, kiai and proper mental conditioning in the student and taught a lot of the sword handling in later kata (Hojo is pretty much just straight cuts).
    In some ways I think shu ha ri makes more sense in today’s world for most civilian students. It’s the police and military that would benefit more from the older pre-Edo methods.
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

  3. #108
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    Kinda what I was thinking, Chris- as they got more "art" and less martial, and I guess more commercial, or that a teacher relied on teaching more than a stipend or service to a lord, that makes sense.

    Probably a topic for a different thread, not to derail this one....

  4. #109
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    I by no means consider myself a historical or scholarly expert on Koryu. Through the years of reading boards like this and discussions similar, here, it seems to be one of the places where people have serious knowledge, as well, a those of inexperience. Through the years of reading so much of it, and the result of topics recycled and being talked to death has killed the forums on which they are posted, and the lack of interest due to other current popular fighting methods. Therefore, I wish, in the dimming twilight of Koryu discussions, offer the following observance.

    Koryu, as per this discussion, it seems and to reason, and due to Koryu is a demarcation, Koryu practices where not set in stone, and varied wildly at an individual's discretion, and no coherence over-time. There was no unification or universality of practice. The common thread was cultural practices of the time, that even differed from period to period. All of which lacks that well defined, categorical distinction that lends to neat little boxes things are put into. It is also compounded by individual Koryu Head's personalities, believes, whims and other such things that shape a particular Koryu. And not to mention Koryu fashion and trends as well of the related period of time the Koryu existed. Koryu practices as related to the discussion are a messy indistinct affair, catering to anyone and everyone's individual opinion of what is and isn't Koryu. Hence the bane of historical knowledge.

    The messy affair of not having denotative definitions, and relying on connotative interpretations creates allot of misinformation, and confusion to what truly is and isn't. For example, the discussion of when a license is given, months vs. years. Then the entrepreneur-ish martial artist sees an opportunity to capital from confusion and misinformation. Thereby, furthering obscuring and twisting historical knowledge to their advantage messing things up more. Then there are those, who interpret Koryu practices as they see fit, to their benefit. Because they are sucked into the rank /title game. They want short cuts, the fast track, to recognition. Usually without putting in their dues or the time into it. Granted when a Koryu art the philosophy dictates the process over the completeness/competence where no goal is set or achieved. The mindset of always are training and refining, with the attitude of you never stop or reach a level of completeness/competence. That can be difficult for some who disagree with this process, and require the reward via a title, rank or recognition.

    These discussion then eventually ends up between two schools of thought of the practices of Koryu. One, is what I like to call "Taking the freeway." And in relation of not relating to the usual logical comparison the "Polishing the sword." Reflecting the two views on practicing Koryu. In my opinion based on observations of life, and experiences of myself and others, you don't appreciate anything that comes to you too quick and easy. If you really love and respect something your perspective and attitude reflects patience, determination, where you continually aspire to be better. You adhere strongly to the idea, creating lasting motivation, you can always get better. Never satisfied, hungry to know or learn more, as there is room for improving. That has greater value personally I think. Than the quick and easy way. Noble as it sounds, it an individual choice that is an approach to Koryu practices. In my opinion, reflects the character of a person, the willingness to stick it out because you loving it for what it is. And not what you can get from it.

    Basically, these are my thoughts upon reading these threads.

  5. #110
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 19:36.
    Nathan Scott
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    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  6. #111
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    At the risk of extending the thread drift, I would clarify that we may be speaking of different eras - so not modern, but certainly post-early Edo as opposed to Sengoku era....

    For the warrior working for a lord, training at a domain school, I would think the idea would be to train him with a bit more practicality, and rapidity in mind: I don't mean the rank and file spearmen or gunners, but more the men of status that would be their "team leaders" and the like.

    I would opine that agreed upon, one-on-one challenges were their functional equivalent of sport....regardless of the serious consequences - earlier on with shinken, later bokuto and shinai... as seen differently from battlefield or exigent combat. Skill at one - though valuable - is not necessarily skill at the others.

    Even that changed....pretty early on it seems that traditions like Katori Shinto ryu and Takeuchi ryu forbid students without full licenses to entertain challenge matches. Even as early as Musashi's time the results of some of this seclusion seems to have been criticized. By him, at least.

    This would also serve to place students under more control - a student from the previous generation that could pretty readily trounce other swordsmen/grapplers would quickly establish a reputation of his own rather than one attached to a specific school - seems that was how schools were founded.

    In a way, didn't Takeda Sokaku do that, much later? He might be another good example of going outside the conventional system?

  7. #112
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 19:36.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  8. #113
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    Yep, just thinking out loud -

    I think the idea that a sport is defined by "not resulting in death or injury" is problematic. One, that may be how we in martial arts and conditioned to think of it today - but ascribing that to another time and culture may not be accurate. Even today, there are sports where potentially serious injury and death are a recognized and realized (at least enough of the time to be a reality) part of the package. Mountain climbing for one.

    Duels/challenges are on their face an artificial test of skill versus a tactical or combative engagement, in that latter the test of skill is to be avoided. I would say that challenges were a part and parcel of musha shugyo, not something different.

    I agree, I think it is/was absolutely about a school's reputation that challenges were forbidden: especially when teachers grew more concerned that their students might lose to commoners who were practicing more "fighting."

    A major question also arises as to how one can develop skill over years, but not have yet got to important elements that pertain to real fights? If one is training students with an idea of preparing them in some way to handle combat psychologically, physically, and ethically, why does it take so long to get to some things? I think this is a luxury of later times, and our current time, when we can rest pretty confident in the fact that most students will have little need for any practical application.

    It is fascinating to read some critique of how swordsmanship changed to kenjutsu - only,as things like iai and jujutsu and other weapons arts fell away, though these latter were once all considered a necessity for the combative swordsman.

    That overspecialization is a result of the lack of necessity. Perhaps, too, the development of waiting years before teaching real fighting aspects to students.

  9. #114
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 19:37.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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