Women & Naginata

[Joseph Svinth]

Part of it is that during the 1920s, the Japanese Ministry of Education decided to introduce a martial art for schoolgirls. Judo, kendo, and boxing were all considered, but in the end, it was naginata that was selected.

[Cady Goldfield]

And therein lies the issue. Naginata as wielded by women (and men) as a weapon in earlier times -- and perpetuated today in some koryu -- was a martial discipline with a pragmatic purpose, is a powerful jutsu. I have seen videos of one of Yoshio Sugino's senior female students, and her naginata waza did not look wimpy.

Naginata as a "parlor art" or "phys-ed requirement" -- a designation under which I'd include "school girl phys ed requirement" -- loses its martial application and becomes just a physical excercise devoid of combat focus or understanding of the martial purpose. I'd reckon that 99.9% of the traditional Japanese girls being instructed in it would just as soon do flower arranging or tea ceremony.

[Joseph Svinth]

Actually, what they wanted to do was play volleyball and basketball, but the fascists weren't into "fun" activities.

[Cady Goldfield]

I was going to mention basketball too...

[Aaron T]

The reason I started naginata is because it is a "women's budo." ;)


The problem is that I practice the Araki naginata, and there are no women in the group.

[Cady Goldfield]

Well, now you know better than to choose koryu dojo as places to pick up chicks.

[Aaron T]

Mongol invasion of Japan was mostly conscripts....Korean, some Chinese.

I am no good at targeting budo that is going to have chicks...

None in ju-jutsu, none in judo, and for sure there are none in the sombo gyms in Mongolia........

[Victor]

Naginata yielded by women......hmmm.

Long ago I saw a video, I believe it was 'Budo the art of Killing' or some such. On it the most impressive group were the women performing Naginata.

Hundreds of them, from girls in school, to young women competing in a Naginata version of Kendo, to Mother's teaching and Grandmothers performing two person sets with live blades.

From all the video I've seen, of many different artists, they presented the most impressive, cross-generational group in the arts I've ever seen.

Several years ago, there was a MA special on the Discovery Channel, that featured some of the same group I believe, with a gentleman there to train under the Senior Instructor (who was female).

Now one can't assume from video tape the entire story is shown. But I've not seen anything else with technique, focus and entire lifetime practioners with hundreds of students.

Sure seem like real martial artists to me.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

[Nathan Scott]

Several years ago, there was a MA special on the Discovery Channel, that featured some of the same group I believe, with a gentleman there to train under the Senior Instructor (who was female).

The gentleman was Alex Bennett, who has been studying atarashii naginata, kendo, Tendo ryu naginatajutsu and other koryu in Japan for some time now. He is also the Editor of "Kendo World" magazine. Subscribe to it if you haven't already. BTW, I believe the senior female instructor was Tokunaga Sensei, who is VERY senior in both Atarashii and Tendo ryu naginata.

The women performing what appeared to be live blade naginata kata in the "Budo" documentary were from Jikishinkage ryu naginatajutsu. And yes, there are a number of very skilled women budo-ka in naginata and other arts.

Alex is in the vast minority of men in Japan studying atarashii naginata, bur from time to time you'll see pictures in magazines like "Budo" magazine (Japanese) of Japanese men in Japan studying as well. The art is appealing on a number of levels, and as such I think we'll see the male to female number begin to equal out a bit more in the future.

Regards,

[Aaron T]

I get the feeling Russ did not catch the "tounge in my cheek."



I stand corrected

[Joseph Svinth]

Perhaps Russ doesn't like tongue action from you as much as Neil?

[David A. Hall]

Building a wall around Hakata Bay after the first attempted invasion helped as much as any particular weapon. The wall wasn't very high but it did restrict the invaders well enough to allow the Japanese to deal with them.

Originally posted by Mekugi
Not that this has a lot to do with the thread at this point...

I was just reading last night about the use of the naginata against the invading Mongols in Japan. Apperantly, the Japanese used them for killing/disabling horses and keeping the Mongolian cavalry from ever getting their act together on shore.

-R

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Andy Watson
I can see how some might read this paragraph and label Donn as being a male chauvinist but I believe that he has written a very objective piece here.

I think he is just drawing comparisons. Obviously many many martial arts have suffered the same fate one way or another.

Anyway, I waffle when people like Dianne Skoss can answer this point much more effectively.

Regards

Am I the only one a little bit bothered by this attempted "defense" of Donn Draeger? I know the attempt is well meant but feels to me to be inadvertantly condescending and somehow unfair.

I think we can all agree for certain that he was in fact, a true blue male chauvinist with little time or use for women in martial arts. This being the man, we should accept him as he was without judging him adversely in his politics or attempting to hide his chauvinism or other biases so that he looks more blandly correct under current standards.

My reaction to his statement on the naginata, and another in Asian Fighting Arts about the degeneration of Hwarangdo into "effeminincy" is the same: so what? One can agree or disagree about these comments as one can about other judgments or opinions he has, and weigh them according to the facts and one's own knowledge.

Since the substance of his work contributed so much and stands up to scrutiny, we should accept the man for who he was. I for one don't hold it against him.

M

[Cady Goldfield]

I agree, Margaret.
Anyway, Draeger is dead, rendering the issue thus is dead, too.

[Dan Harden]

I take exception to anyone labeling .
What if......
The group of men that Don was involved actually s-a-w the Kata degenerate in womens hands?

What if....
They were correct and accurate in their observations?
Should they lie about it to appease someones sensibilities?

What if....
They were correct that it it also happened in the past with the halberd?

There is little chance that an army of women would stand against and equal army of men with swords and Naginata. You can recite individual exceptions to the cows come home it doesn' mean anything for large percentages.

A team of Pro footbal women players would get murdered by a typical NFL team..so what?
There are more men in prison than women.
Men commit the majority of violent crime
Its true
I'm chauvinisitic to say it?
If things were different due to upbringing, training, culture, whatever, and women were as large, as aggressive on average to men then things would be different.

Gees
People are generally so exact these days as to defy any effective communication. Everyone has a cause and an aggenda- its new age nonsense. Women are no better than men-no worse. But we are not the same in many respects..thank goodness.
These guys were of a different era observing behaviour of that era that was most probably observationally sound. And from that they formed an opinion.

Cheers
Dan