Recently, I was watching a tape of Kyuzo Mifune and I saw him demonstrating the NAGE URA NO KATA, composed of countering techniques to the NAGE NO KATA. I never heard of that Kata. Does anyone know anything about it?
Best
Yamantaka
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Recently, I was watching a tape of Kyuzo Mifune and I saw him demonstrating the NAGE URA NO KATA, composed of countering techniques to the NAGE NO KATA. I never heard of that Kata. Does anyone know anything about it?
Best
Yamantaka
It may be the same as Kaeshi No Kata of reversing throws.
It used to be a standard kata, but it fell into disuse.
I recall beng the uke for it, when a visiting instructor came and demonstrated it.
The fun part is you are really supposed to try to throw tori, each time.
So you haveto be a lot better than uke, to make the kata work.
I wonder if that is why it fell into disuse.:-)
regards
It must be remembered, too, that not all judo is Kodokan judo. As with all things political, it did not take long for others to change or add kata to the syllabus. Gaeshi no kata is still in use, but is refered to simply as those throws of the gokyo no waza, that is, in Kodokan judo.
A good example is that of go no sen no kata which is not included in the kodokan syllabus, but the waza definitely are. There is also the waza of ura nage, which by the Kodokan, is simply one nage waza. There are several throws which would meet that description as well, but no nage ura no kata is included.
Other schools which developed their own kata might be the Butokukai and Waseda University. The Butokukai is especially well known as the "School of political judo" since many did not like the hold Kano had on judo and opened their own, with their own rankings, etc. People of all types went there, but it was well-known to politicians, as well as yakuza types.
Just like the many schools of jujutsu which died, many kata of judo were known at one time, and then discarded, but appropriate waza of these kata which did not meet with the approval of the Kodokan, were kept.
Counter attacks are simply those waza which can be reversed, switched, or as many continuous attacks necessary to do the job, so many such counters are not even catalogued, at least to my knowledge.
Mark
A "LOST" KATA ?
The curious thing is the NAGE URA NO KATA is demonstrated by Mifune (a kodokan man) in this tape, as one of the judo kata. And it is extremely beautiful! Anyway, I agree with Mark : Tori should be much better than uke for this kata and that may very well be the reason why it is not practiced anymore. A pity...
Best
Ubaldo.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF
[B]It must be remembered, too, that not all judo is Kodokan judo. As with all things political, it did not take long for others to change or add kata to the syllabus. Gaeshi no kata is still in use, but is refered to simply as those throws of the gokyo no waza, that is, in Kodokan judo.A good example is that of go no sen no kata which is not included in the kodokan syllabus, but the waza definitely are. There is also the waza of ura nage, which by the Kodokan, is simply one nage waza. There are several throws which would meet that description as well, but no nage ura no kata is included.
Other schools which developed their own kata might be the Butokukai and Waseda University. The Butokukai is especially well known as the "School of political judo" since many did not like the hold Kano had on judo and opened their own, with their own rankings, etc. People of all types went there, but it was well-known to politicians, as well as yakuza types.
Just like the many schools of jujutsu which died, many kata of judo were known at one time, and then discarded, but appropriate waza of these kata which did not meet with the approval of the Kodokan, were kept.
Counter attacks are simply those waza which can be reversed, switched, or as many continuous attacks necessary to do the job, so many such counters are not even catalogued, at least to my knowledge.
Mark
Hi, Ubaldo,
There was a time when Mifune and the Kodokan split, and never did get settled before his death. Of course today, he is memorialized at the Kodokan, as they would have a rough time of it fighting "Mifune ryu." He was a different level all together. Kano's tongue and academics is how judo was described, but Mifune was the first modern student who could mold it into something else.
Even then, the Kodokan didn't like anyone to disagree with them. Mifune didn't disagree, he just took it to places no one else could go. I think instead of a bust of "the Admiral," an empty uwagi would be more fitting.
Mark
MIFUNE'S "SPLIT" (???)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF
[B]Hi, Ubaldo,
There was a time when Mifune and the Kodokan split, and never did get settled before his death. Of course today, he is memorialized at the Kodokan, as they would have a rough time of it fighting "Mifune ryu." He was a different level all together. Kano's tongue and academics is how judo was described, but Mifune was the first modern student who could mold it into something else.
Even then, the Kodokan didn't like anyone to disagree with them. Mifune didn't disagree, he just took it to places no one else could go. I think instead of a bust of "the Admiral," an empty uwagi would be more fitting.
YAMANTAKA : Mark, that's a very interesting information, one I really didn't have. Could you tell me anything else about it? I'm a great fan of Mifune's judo and I'm interested in anything concerning him.
Anxious to hear from you
Best regards
These are things one hears about but when actual confirmation is asked for, the powers that be deny it out of hand, or simply don't answer you.
My first teacher told us of this split, and this was in Mifune's latter years, when he would tell us of any changes in Mifune's health, or the day when he died, but at that time there were no plans to really memorialize him, the bust I spoke of is relatively new. In those latter days, even Kano dropped much of his interest in the school, and settled instead on spreading the word, attempting to bring sport into Japan, and exporting judo. Is there a message in that, do you think? Usually, there are reasons for everything, jealosy is not an easy sin to live with.
Well, basically, it came down to this. As early as 1895, Kano was feeling the displeasure of some, the Butokukai was formed, later it adopted its own judo. From the outside, things looked the same, and things such as grades, etc., were roughly equal.
Jigoro Kano could always find a way to explain his techniques, but others couldn't, and he said as much, saying there were few qualified teachers. This was an insult, but to some, it was a challenge. Kano's student, Kyuzo Mifune, was one who took up the challenge, being a man of litte academia, at least when compared to his teacher, he took the road of "punishment being its own reward." As John Cornish wrote, "the admiral didn't think a thing of seeing the slightest error, and forcing you to repeat the nage fifty, one hundred times." (paraphrased, as I am too lazy to search for the exact words.) Cornish spoke of this when working out with Donn Draeger and also spoke of the little red marks on his body which would bleed from the intenseness of practice. Mifune may have only taken a look inside the door for a moment and made the correction and the punishment.
This was not the way of gentleness, and the Kodokan seemed not to like it. A rift developed (this happened earlier than Draeger and Cornish, but his comments concerning Mifune fit), not so far as to remove Mifune from the school, but the subject (Mifune) was something not spoken of, and there is not all that much, or at least it was that way, of Mifune, and when you hear or read the stories of how great he really was, it makes you wonder why there was not more, but mostly, if you recall, it comes from others, jujutsuka, aikidoka, aikijujutsuka. There is more film of Kano and his various uke around from the very early days of film, then there is of Mifune in his latter years, or at least, not until lately.
Anyway, I know of no real concrete serious evidence of this split, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist. He came up with all sorts of different waza, but with his teacher gone for long periods, much was not recorded. The Kodokan today, will not answer me, or anyone else when questioned about this, but this wasn't a secret in the sixties. When I was invited to study at the Kodokan in the sixties, my teacher wasn't all that receptive, but did ask if I wanted to go. I couldn't as there was no money for it, but later when I asked, he simply said "there are better places to study judo than the Kodokan. It has long ceased to be THE place to learn judo."
Politics.
I do have some words somewhere which actually speak of this rift, but even here, the true evidence is lacking.
Darn, now you have piqued my interest. I will look for a more concrete mention of it.
Ubaldo,
This is something concerning Cornish I received some time ago from Joe Svinth. I do not think he will mind it posted here. It explains some how Kyuzo taught judo, and how, possibly, it relates to this. I will say this is not stated at all, but it does state Mifune's message to us all. I do not think he was very concerned with shiai.
****************
From John Cornish, 109 Greengate Street, London, E13 08G, June 3, 2000
Donn Draeger and I were the first foreigners to do nage-no-kata in the All Japan Championships. We also did it in the Olympics in 1964.
I also participated in the first mixed display, with Nihon University's Matsushita. With him I also did it in the All Japan Industrial Judo Championships. That was another first. As tori, I did nage-no-kata with the Canadian Gedtis (is that the spelling?) in the All Japan Police Judo Championships. The dates are the problem, but the were between 1961 and 1964.
My notes are all over the place so I'm not sure how long it would take me to find out. I wrote an article in the London Budokwai's Judo Bulletin Issue No. 71, Oct. 1962 about Draeger, have you got it?
I remember a couple of things not in the article about him. When we got a sweat on he would wipe the sweat with a little towel (te-nugui) and such the sweat! (I was shown this method on a survival course for use in the desert.) Also no matter how cold he never wore an overcoat.
Both he and I had done lots of kata, but still put in lots of training, mostly under Otani Sensei (then 8th Dan now 10th Dan). Mifune did look in one session of training. This may have been accidental or not. He did not say anything to us but, and admiral doesn't talk to the ordinary seamen and may have passed his thoughts down the ranks. When training with Matsushita we had help from the Kodokan senseis but also an expert at Nihon University. Sorry, but I forget his name. In one session this sensei made us go through nage-no-kata three times with full power. That meant ninety hard falls for me, then made us do one throw he didn't like fifty times. Next day I had little pinpricks of blood coming out of my pores where I had made contact with the mat. I tell this to show how serious the training was. In my years as a British national coach for kata I have, and still do, try to explain the demonstration of kata is not important, it is the training and what you learn from the training that counts. For so much of judo, kata is the only way that training in safety can be carried out.
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Hi Ubaldo. (You too, Shorty.)
If you look closely, I believe the individual waza are captioned. If not, they are easily recognized. Take the time to identify the counters and list them. They are all stunningly appropriate. The nage ura no kata makes tori look great because he always throws the right counter!
Regards,
Member
Hi All,
Was Jigaro Kano president of the Butokukai in 1905? I am sure I read this some where, I think it was on a French Judo site.
Regards,
Gavin.
HI, Gavin,
I can't think of a single reason, not any proof of this. Since Kano was an academic, and not a militarist, the rumblings began in 1895 to set up a different school, one which taught judo and kendo, amoung others later on.
The usual comment concerning Kano was (paraphrased)"Kano reads books about philosophy. He has no military experience at all."
While I'm sure J. Kano visited the Butokukai, they had all ready in the 1900s or 1910s split from the Kodokan and fashioned their own school with rougly equal rankings, but a decidedly different take on this method of physical training. Many who spent time at the Butokukai included the emperor, politicians and yakuza types.
It was closed during WWII, but when the war was over, they did not know if they existed at all, but as Japan was being given the Japanese back their country, they voted to close entirely in 1949. What exists today as the Dai Nihon Butokukai, and particularly, the American version in the seventies, is not anywhere near the same organization, and basically, is good ol' boy club.
Mark
Shorty, huh, well, where the hell have you been? Putting on your socks? This forum almost fell apart in your absence. Stop that!
ABOUT THE BUTOKUKAI
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF
It was closed during WWII, but when the war was over, they did not know if they existed at all, but as Japan was being given the Japanese back their country, they voted to close entirely in 1949. What exists today as the Dai Nihon Butokukai, and particularly, the American version in the seventies, is not anywhere near the same organization, and basically, is good ol' boy club.
Mark
YAMANTAKA : Hey, this is all news to me! Where can I find complete information about the Butokukai (pre and post war)?
(Besides new information by Mark. Uh, "shorty"? What's that?)
Good Christmas to you all
Hi, Mark.
The melissa virus wipes out the hard drive very effectively if you don't have a new edition of Norton Antivirus. I have been under the influence. The system is now rebuilt almost to the previous comfort level, and I now have a big old burly guard on each entrance port ready to use his UZI to cut down any invaders. And yes, socks are a problem, but they are a necessity.
Stand by for a list of the Nage-Ura-no-Kata. I should post it today.
Regards,
Hi, Mark.
Here is my list of the Nage Ura no Kata:
Throw: Countered By:
1. Uki Goshi / Tai Otoshi
2. Seoi Nage / Yoko Guruma
3. Kata Guruma / Sumi Gaeshi
4. Tai Otoshi / Kotsuri Goshi
5. Obi Otoshi / O Guruma
6. Okuri Ashi Harai / Tsubame Gaeshi
7. Kouchi Gari / Hiza Guruma
8. Ouchi Gari / Tomoe Nage
9. Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi / Sumi Otoshi
10. Uchi Mata / Tai Otoshi
11. Hane Goshi / Kari Gaeshi
12. Harai Goshi / Ushiro Goshi
13. Hane Goshi / Utsuri Goshi
14. Uki Goshi / Yoko Wakare
15. Ogoshi / Ippon Seoi Nage
As I noted before, most of the counters are self-explanitory. These counters are effective because they are the right counters for the entry postures of the original throws. Try them out; you'll be startled by their effectiveness.
Regards,
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