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Thread: womens issues

  1. #16
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    Default

    hmmm...

    here are the details of how i do it, as well as i can explain on-line -

    i wrap the obi so it rides on top of the ridge, and then the hakama sits on top - the knot/bow of the hakama is sitting right at my belly-button.
    saya goes in-between folds of the obi, and over one hakama himo - haven't had any problems so far... it seems to sit pretty balanced. and my iaido teachers haven't complained...

    now, i learned to wear a hakama first in naginata - from women - and i notice that kendoka [or at least the male kendoka i've seen] wrap their obi, and therefore their hakama, a lot lower on the hips. also the himo are handled differently.

    I was told in naginata that it is a style thing, not a male/female thing - i have no idea what the revealed truth is from the other side.

    mew
    Margaret Welsh

    "It's more fun when they do it to themselves." Barbara Hambly

  2. #17
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    Talking

    Hi John
    I think I understand what you mean when you say too male atmosphere,it l does not feel balanced,have you had females in your Dojo before or has it always been all male ?
    when I first started I was the only girl in a club of about 40 males,now im not bothered but alot of the men there were,this made me more determined to give them a bit of trouble so I stayed . You dont sound like the sort of guy who is in anyway like that so here is a brief feel of why you got no female practitioners.
    1.catch 22 no women in there none want to come in
    2.pere pressure to look good and go to step and bums n tums (AAAAGGGGHH)
    3.Husbands and boyfriends I have found are often behind the non attendance of females and when they do start they can be under alot of pressure to stop I have come across this one alot.
    4.families ,babies etc (although this does not stop them going to bums n tums)
    5.shyness and in the case of JuJitsu shy at first of body closeness

    If a female wants to do a martial art she really will NOT fit into any of the above,so where to find them.
    In the club I go to we have 3 blackbelt ,1 brown ,1 blue and a few yellow belt women so it was the first black belt who led the way so to speak,alot of Mums try it and some stay,but in your club you wont have that will you or do you? women in the dojo often lack confidence and they can get hurt alot easier at first...so always make sure you keep an eye on who they training with as a guy of the same grade or the green belt beware syndrome !!try to hurt anyone that comes near them cos they can or cos they havent learnt to control there strength, so trustworthy partners ,the ones who kno0w how to control themselves are the ones so we do need a bit of TLC to start with im sure if you advertise at places women go ,maybe you could go to the bums n tums and steal some !!! women not bums !!!! I now need coffee Jax
    Last edited by deaddoll; 20th February 2006 at 19:15.
    Jax English

  3. #18
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    Cool Women Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by deaddoll
    when I first started I was the only girl in a club of about 40 males,now im not bothered but alot of the men there were,this made me more determined to give them a bit of trouble so I stayed.
    How did you work through those first feelings of "not exactly welcome here"?
    I didn't run into it too often as aikido and judo are touted as "gentle" arts and therefore more PC for women to train in (yeah whatever ) but there is still the occasional "boy's club".

    It sounds arrogant, but why would I want to be a member of a club that won't have me? I have left styles alone because I found out that they allow women to train, but won't promote them. Not that I care so much about promotion, just support.

    2.pere pressure to look good and go to step and bums n tums (AAAAGGGGHH)
    3.Husbands and boyfriends I have found are often behind the non attendance of females and when they do start they can be under alot of pressure to stop I have come across this one alot.
    I have also seen men whose mates hold their dojo time over them like a gallows. My first husband, however, understood that training was good for me and took over more household responsibilities so that I could train.
    How do you help these women out, besides saying "he doesn't want what you want, or what's good for you, how can that be good?"

    4.families ,babies etc (although this does not stop them going to bums n tums)
    5.shyness and in the case of JuJitsu shy at first of body closeness
    I have particularly enjoyed dojo where the kids are welcome, and mentored as part of the family by the whole community.

    The shyness is often tinged with a great deal of fear. Women are socialized to fear men. At the same time, this is the best reason to train, not only to, by determination, become free from the fear, but also learn to trust men. This requires that TLC Jax is talking about, but at least in my career, it has been a real blessing.

    I remember really wishing I had a high-ranking female teacher, but I got the lessons I needed, and more, from male teachers who took the time to really try to reach me and "knock the corners off". Gently, fortunately!

    In the club I go to we have 3 blackbelt ,1 brown ,1 blue and a few yellow belt women so it was the first black belt who led the way so to speak,
    That's what needed. The first couple may have to be cultivated, but the simple sight of a woman doing *whatever* can be enough to get another to step on the mat.

    Education and outreach, letting people know that it's not machismo but good training that does the trick in terms of gaining skills...

    The rest of it's just up to luck, I'm afraid.

    You could always get a new spiffy window treatment.
    ;-D

  4. #19
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    Default Female majority

    Hello !
    I have been training for two years in dojos where there are more women than men. I feel there relaxed and I think there is less competition between the members. The little problem is the big meetings (gashuku). Some men can be really hard with us, sometimes to show their strenght when it's absolutely not needed in the practice.

    But I just think, they don't know how to react, when they are not used to a female partner. If they pay too much attention, we can feel that they do that because we are women. Which means, they consider us less like a partner. And if they are hard and hurting, (i.e. considering us like a male partner), we can complain.

    My first budo experience as I was a teenager was that the boys tried to kick me out of the dojo. They managed to do it !

    The teacher has to pay attention. It's a question of balance and respect toward the others, women, children or beginners. Everybody has to feel welcome.

    What do you mind ?

    Céline Meyer

  5. #20
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    Hey

    What do I mean by "too male"? Well anytime Ive had to explain a move to a women I find that Im really technically switched on whereas explaining it to a man is kinda of "foot here and hand here, now do it", but that could be just me. Also women tend to give good energy to the dojo and brighten the place up. That sounded better in my head. Does that explain it? Its more a feeling thing than anything else. But we ve talked about it in the dojo and we all agree that we want more women training.

    From what Ive seen, in Ireland, women tend to join the "bums and tums" stuff. Theres a lot of women training in kickboxing. They seem to go for the more keep fit approach. We use to have a womens class, because they asked for one, where they would use the men as ukes then slowly we started to get them to use each other. Then we broke for christmas (2 weeks) and when the class started back the numbers started to fall again so my sensei got fed up with them not turning up so he stopped training on that day and spent the time with his kids. We do have one woman training 3 times a week with us but she has been there for the last 15 years.

    I dont know too much what its like in other countries. We do have a dojo in Germany and there are a number of girls there.

    I ve only driven through cavan, never spent any large amount of time there but Im sure you d like it. If you dont you can always drive somewhere else. Sure it only takes 3 hours to drive across Ireland.

    Thanks,

    John Timmons
    Son of Ironfist
    Ryoshin Dojo
    Dublin
    Ireland

  6. #21
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    Default

    I don't see any of the above as particularly, or uniquely, 'women's issues'.

    -lack of an understanding significant other
    -having to balance training with other responsibilities (includes time away for parenting)
    -the 'you're not welcome here' sign doesn't just get waved under the female nose (there are all kinds of prejudices/'isms')
    'Leaves fall.'

  7. #22
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    Default Everyone's issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Harlan
    I don't see any of the above as particularly, or uniquely, 'women's issues'.

    -lack of an understanding significant other
    -having to balance training with other responsibilities (includes time away for parenting)
    -the 'you're not welcome here' sign doesn't just get waved under the female nose (there are all kinds of prejudices/'isms')
    Too true.
    For some reason I am having a Star Wars flashback where the androids are being shown the door "We don't serve their kind here".

    Perhaps the hard truth is often that women are a kind of "indicator species" which flourish only in the more nourishing environments. Think of wolves, or falcons. If the hunting isn't good, they won't stick around.

    It isn't always the dojo's fault that a person doesn't have their life arranged to suit their personal growth goals. Heck, most of us don't have that in order.
    We're stuck going to "bums and tums" (that phrase drives this American into silent hilarity) over and over, thinking it will solve our problems.

    We could also ask how dojo could be more welcoming to homosexuals, and how Americans get along in Japanese dojo, which in at least some accounts have been some of the most punishing environments available (read Angry White Pyjamas or Duelling with Osensei).

    However, while we cannot even make political cartoons without parsing people off into bloody riots any more, we can point fingers at women and what they do, or don't do, or how we cannot deal with them, or how women can't deal with whatever, or just generally bartch that the world is not Just So.

    IT AIN'T.

    So. Funny story.
    Once upon a time, I was training with a lovely Southern gentleman affiliated with Yanagi Ryu. I was still a beginner there, though I had about three years of aikido behind me. The fellow kept catching me, every time he threw me. I found that very sweet, but silly macha me, I decided he was just being too namby-pamby. So I grabbed him by his dogi lapels over his tanned, muscular life-guard's chest, and lifted him almost off his feet (at 173 cm and over 75 kilos on a bad day, it's not impossible) at which point I forced him to Actually Throw me.

    After I shoo'ed the little yellow birdies and stars out of my vision, I let him help me up. I thanked him, and left him on the ground in my attacks, after that.

    Moral of the story:
    Be careful what you ask for.
    You might get it.

    -Emily

  8. #23
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    Default Thoughts on Women & Dojo

    Quote Originally Posted by ryoishin
    What do I mean by "too male"? Well anytime Ive had to explain a move to a women I find that Im really technically switched on whereas explaining it to a man is kinda of "foot here and hand here, now do it", but that could be just me.
    Well now that I've had a rant and all, we can talk. ;-D
    I LIKE technical explanations, but I do even better if I have a "story" to go with it somehow. "So you want to step behind him and stick your elbow in his ear" or some such, works well.
    After I get the points right a couple of times, then I can put the feeling in.

    Men and women can sometimes have different "directional" communication styles. A man will say "go west two miles and turn east at mile marker 777" a woman will say, turn left, go past the thatched pub, and then go right at the druggery". Too much technical, if the person can't parse it (not my previous meaning, erm.. ) blocks them up. As you know, you've been teaching for ages, you have to give it in bites they can swallow.

    Also women tend to give good energy to the dojo and brighten the place up. That sounded better in my head. Does that explain it? Its more a feeling thing than anything else. But we ve talked about it in the dojo and we all agree that we want more women training.
    Maybe you can elucidate three things this means, concretely (flowers on the kamiza, nice soaps in the loo, whatever) and and do them anyway. I've been training with two men and just me for the past year, and I've learned that if I want a bit of something, I just need to do it, or ask for it. If you are looking for a more nurturing or hospitable atmosphere, just find a way to do it.

    We used to have a nice fellow by the name of Martin who used to add immensely to the hospitality of our dojo with his big warm heart and his tendency to bring immense amounts of homebrew for post-training dojo cameraderie.

    From what Ive seen, in Ireland, women tend to join the "bums and tums" stuff. Theres a lot of women training in kickboxing.
    I did a bit of that with a mentor who knew what he was doing, and it was a blast. Later, when I tried a commercial class, the guy didn't want me to punch correctly. He was afraid I would "hurt somebody".
    No, really. It was incredibly lame.

    They seem to go for the more keep fit approach.
    This tells you that your audience is very practical. Answer this interest.

    We use to have a womens class, because they asked for one,
    This should be a phase-in sort of thing, not an end unto itself. Sooner or later, we all have to deal with the other gender. Whatever that may be.
    You know these things (new students) are like throwing money at a wall; You get to keep what sticks.

    We do have one woman training 3 times a week with us but she has been there for the last 15 years.
    I'm sure you've asked her why her friends don't come. She might be like me, a woman who has strenuously avoided "traditional" entanglements in order to pursue what makes her happier.

    I dont know too much what its like in other countries. We do have a dojo in Germany and there are a number of girls there.
    Germans are big on clubs and social committments. You can have a uni club with 500 members, and you only ever see 50 of them. This is fine though, because the dues of the others enable them to show up at parties, and it buys beer and pizza for all.
    It's also delightfully all right for a woman to be strong and in control here, after all, they rebuilt the country. Sure, there was lot of grumbling about Merkel, especially in Bavaria (where I live) but they got used to it pretty quickly. They've got a lot to grouse about besides her, especially with bird flu encroaching from the east.

    I ve only driven through cavan, never spent any large amount of time there but Im sure you d like it. If you dont you can always drive somewhere else. Sure it only takes 3 hours to drive across Ireland.
    I've recently found out that a family ancestor came from Cavan, and I just want to go look at faces. Not in a rude way, I like to talk to people. I learned quite a lot, that last trip. We drove from Slane to Galway in that amount of time last year. I fell quite in love with Athlon, the funny place in the middle.

    -Emily

  9. #24
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    Default Frauensprache

    Quote Originally Posted by plume
    Hello !
    I have been training for two years in dojos where there are more women than men. I feel there relaxed and I think there is less competition between the members. The little problem is the big meetings (gashuku). Some men can be really hard with us, sometimes to show their strenght when it's absolutely not needed in the practice.
    Gruessen/Bonjour:
    So is it not my imagination that the koryu are not perhaps more inviting to some? Margaret talks about naginata/kendo and tying the hakama (oops, I'm sort of neither, I just want it all to stay together!) these little differences seem almost celebrated, rather than picked at. Never mind those who feel the need to test everyone... I think that's a kind of universal constant. As a bodyworker (massage therapist, Rolfer after May 2006 with luck!) my hands are my life, and I ask others to be careful with them.

    But I just think, they don't know how to react, when they are not used to a female partner. If they pay too much attention, we can feel that they do that because we are women. Which means, they consider us less like a partner. And if they are hard and hurting, (i.e. considering us like a male partner), we can complain.
    I wonder if these same guys have trouble modulating with an older/injured male partner. This would just be insensitivity, as opposed to sexism. As you say, they cannot pay either too much or too little attention without problems. Certainly one should just train as one trains, but without a partner, there isn't that special challenge of timing/riai which makes it so sweet. If we do not train so that we can interact with another being, what on earth are we training for? to look good in a mirror? Bleah! |-p

    My first budo experience as I was a teenager was that the boys tried to kick me out of the dojo. They managed to do it !
    Their loss. What style was it?

    The teacher has to pay attention. It's a question of balance and respect toward the others, women, children or beginners. Everybody has to feel welcome. What do you mind ?
    Yes. Exactly. Genau.
    I mind (as in resent or become upset by) insensitivity. If the teacher cannot gauge my experience, or lack of it, if a partner cannot tell when I cannot give back what they have given me, if my injuries cannot be taken into account when I am training (and I will gladly trade with a fitter partner so my partner can train what they need) then I cannot train there.
    I mind being seen as a gender, rather than anything else. Sure, I've got a gender, but so does everyone else. It's not so important as character, and I'd rather count characters rather than "bits" of this sort or that, as dojomates.

    -Emily

  10. #25
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    Default

    I'm sorry I don't exactly agree with the above idea of accomodating people.

    I do think that if an instructor chooses to modify their training to keep people...that is their choice. If not, then that is their choice as well. The student should keep looking for the right training situation. If they decide that the right training situation happens to include challenges...then they will be the stronger for it.
    'Leaves fall.'

  11. #26
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    Default Obi/female waist probs

    Quote Originally Posted by mews
    hmmm...
    i wrap the obi so it rides on top of the ridge, and then the hakama sits on top - the knot/bow of the hakama is sitting right at my belly-button.
    saya goes in-between folds of the obi, and over one hakama himo - haven't had any problems so far... it seems to sit pretty balanced. and my iaido teachers haven't complained...
    mew
    I find that drawing is much easier if the obi actually wraps the hip bones themselves (as they do on a man) a good hand below my navel (which is at my "natural") waist. This is nice and comfy, but won't stay.

    This isn't a problem with our omoto sets, it's when I get into the fast-draws that I need that extra space for sayabiki. I blame my body mechanics as much as my clothing woes, but I'd like to make things as easy as possible for myself. I do have a measurable diff btwn waist and hips, so it's not a problem of being a blob.

    The cycle of "draw three times, shove obi back down around hips" makes me feel like an obese kid in a breakdancing contest... wearing his larger brother's pants. It's all quite "in" these days, I see...

    Sword styles vary, of course. Ours is supposed to be most like Sekiguchi Ryu (according to Kiyama Hiroshi Sensei) if that helps. The style is rather dynamic, with compression cuts rather than the Eishin-ryu style extended cut. This all suits me fine, I just can't get the clothing right!

    Gads. I'm a batto style victim.
    *groan*
    -Emily

  12. #27
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    Default Accommodations

    Quote Originally Posted by Harlan
    I'm sorry I don't exactly agree with the above idea of accomodating people.

    I do think that if an instructor chooses to modify their training to keep people...that is their choice. If not, then that is their choice as well. The student should keep looking for the right training situation. If they decide that the right training situation happens to include challenges...then they will be the stronger for it.
    Depends on the instructor, sure. I would never tell an instructor they needed to modify their style to accommodate women, or whatever minority-of-the-day it is. Who said training should be challenge-free? What would be the point?

    Who has stepped on the mat for a whole class, without a mistake?

    This excepts instructors, and they are out there, who willfully injure, drive off, abuse or, perhaps, as you put it, "challenge" people they don't like. It can certainly be done nicely, and productively, and be met by those who "want to" as opposed to those who "want to want to".
    Can't make all the people happy, all the time. Nor should a dedicated instructor try.

    This "selection process" can also be ugly and abusive, or just plain make whoever you are, invisible.

    For these, I would just train with someone else.
    I've done it before, and I'd do it again.

    Did you read the paper link I posted earlier?

    In one way, I'm glad my instructor runs a private dojo. It keeps abusers and wannabees out. I don't miss them.

    In another, I think there are people with pretty limited views of the world, and I don't have much to say to them, nor do I care to spend time arguing with them. They can have it. I have plenty else to do. Like get some rest.

    -Emily

  13. #28
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    Default

    This is a very interesting read. I'm really enjoying it.

    On Saturdays, I teach a class in the afternoons. Up until last weekend, the group has been male. We spend time on the weekend going at each other a bit harder than normal classes. The people that usually show up are those of us with military and law enforcement backgrounds. We try to make things as real as possible. When we spar, it's full contact with light pads, so we tend to not see people who aren't prepared for this type of activity.

    Two weeks ago, a young lady (17) stopped in with her father to observe the class and was interested in joining. My instructor walked her through the motions of joining and I assume she made it to the regular classes during the week (my trainer shows up in the morning).

    So this past Saturday she walks right in and is ready to go. I still don't know how to handle her presence in the class. I haven't changed anything about what we focus on and when we decided to spar, she was the first person ready to go. I feel alittle odd having a female around, but I am happy that she decided to come.

    My main fear is that awkward touching thing. I never want to put a hand on a woman for any reason and now that I have one in my class, I am sure that that point will eventually come along. Not that what we do is inappropriate, but it just seems different.
    ERIC DANIEL WARD

  14. #29
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    Default obi advice...

    Not being a woman and also not much of an iaidoka but...

    when I lived in Japan my homestay was a Japanese dance dojo. I found out a lot about how to wear kimono, esp as my GF at the time was also learning Nihon Buyo.

    With women who have sharply defined waist and or hips (IOW gaikokujin), what they did was to wrap a towel around the waist (over the underclothes) so that the body profile was straight: no hour-glass figures in classical Japanese culture!). Over the towel the buyoka then wore the kimono, with all the various obi needed to hold it all in place.

    It struck me that this *might* work for female iaidoka too...

    b

  15. #30
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    Default

    Very interesting article here from a woman's POV about how to persevere in MA training. Also very relevant to anyone involved in running a dojo who wants to provide a positive experience for female members.The rest of the site seems to be a pretty good resource too.

    b

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