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Thread: womens issues

  1. #31
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    Default obi advice ...

    you know, given my shape - heaps-of-hips - I never even thought of going lower with the obi.

    I shall experiment and report back.

    I don't know how the towel thing would work - I'll ask one of my sensei who also studies Japanese dance what she thinks.

    mew
    Margaret Welsh

    "It's more fun when they do it to themselves." Barbara Hambly

  2. #32
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    Default kill the gender ?

    Thanks, danke

    Quote Originally Posted by EDGordon

    Their loss. What style was it?
    It was judo. As I said before, we were teenagers. The gender problem is certainly more accurate at this time

    Quote Originally Posted by EDGordon
    I mind being seen as a gender, rather than anything else. Sure, I've got a gender, but so does everyone else. It's not so important as character, and I'd rather count characters rather than "bits" of this sort or that, as dojomates.
    I find it quite difficult for people to go over the gender. How to get into a physical contact with a woman, as says the 7thSamurai. Hey, it's again a question of respect, I think ! If a man doesn't feel at ease with that, the woman is gonna feel it. If the man can forget, in a way, the feminity of the student, it can be more easy.
    Gender is a social construction. Men and women are physically different and also got other kind of education. If we could go over the gender and our expectations toward it, the partner stays a partner. Some have more suppleness, other more endurance, more memory, more instinct for movement.

    That a teacher adapts his training for women ?? It seems to me the wrong way. But that a teacher sees above all a woman as a woman and not a student... Maybe should he try a class where there's only women, to get the feeling we can sometimes have

  3. #33
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    having been away for about 20 hours ,I now have some catching up to do
    so many good posts ,havent read all of them but ones I did interesting ....cant work out how to go back 15 posts and quote right now ,so sorry ,but ages ago I mentioned my first club didnt really lke me being around,and it was rightly asked WHY did I staed...Answer .. only club for 60 miles .....I like a challenge ...I really wanted to train....and you know I do belive they got used to me, even liked me there after a while and I did grade there after a few grades however I did move a few hundred miles away..
    I have been to clubs when I have been away, where I have been patronized and now I find that so annoying I would like to tell a few ways I personally have dealt with some things ,but I now have to deal with sleep havent had any for ages due to work soo I will come back later...the subject of gays in the dojo think it was why are there not so many?came up,ineresting point ,I work with loads of gay men ,I will ask them ,they probally will run from me as they will think I want to practice on them ,and the guys at work think im scarey
    Jax English

  4. #34
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    Default "you ve been teaching for ages" emily

    Just for the record I dont teach in the sense of having my own dojo just lower grades and when my sensei asks me to.

    Our dojo is in Bavaria and we are having a seminar there in July that your more than welcome to attend.



    Thanks,

    John Timmons
    Son of Ironfist
    Ryoshin Dojo
    Dublin
    Ireland

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7thSamurai
    This is a very interesting read. I'm really enjoying it.

    On Saturdays, I teach a class in the afternoons. Up until last weekend, the group has been male. We spend time on the weekend going at each other a bit harder than normal classes. The people that usually show up are those of us with military and law enforcement backgrounds. We try to make things as real as possible. When we spar, it's full contact with light pads, so we tend to not see people who aren't prepared for this type of activity.

    Two weeks ago, a young lady (17) stopped in with her father to observe the class and was interested in joining. My instructor walked her through the motions of joining and I assume she made it to the regular classes during the week (my trainer shows up in the morning).

    So this past Saturday she walks right in and is ready to go. I still don't know how to handle her presence in the class. I haven't changed anything about what we focus on and when we decided to spar, she was the first person ready to go. I feel alittle odd having a female around, but I am happy that she decided to come.

    My main fear is that awkward touching thing. I never want to put a hand on a woman for any reason and now that I have one in my class, I am sure that that point will eventually come along. Not that what we do is inappropriate, but it just seems different.
    I have been doing Judo/Jujutsu for the past 4 years and for most of that time have been the only woman in my club. Suffice to say that noone altered their practice to accomodate me. I learned how to train. All this stuff about clubs needing to change the way that they practice for women is ridiculous. I didn't start training to learn how to do Judo/Jujutsu as a woman who is being pampered by a bunch of guys. I learned how to train because I wanted to be good at something that I found challenging. If you are scared of putting your hands on someone, then why teach her? She didn't walk in there for you to tell her that she is a cute little girl and it is sweet that she came to practice. She came to learn how to do what you do. Respect that. I grapple with guys of all different shapes and sizes and throw big guys and little guys. I get pinned and tapped and joint-locked and I do the same stuff to my opponents and training partners. I wouldn't be able to do what I have learned in that 4 years time if I had been treated like "the girl." I really appreciate that about the guys (and the new woman) in my club.

    If your club is a good club, you are going to attract people who are interested in practicing. The reasons that alot of adult women don't practice martial arts has more to do with their own ideas about sports, competitiveness and strength than it has to do with your club. Most women think that martial arts are difficult and they think that martial arts are the domain of men. Most women don't like to fight.
    Last edited by bhoutros; 22nd February 2006 at 19:25.
    Laura Joffe

  6. #36
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    I remember meeting Laura when she first started training since I'm friends with several people in her dojo. I also rent space from her sensei. She ground her teeth together, toughed it out and gave as good as she got in training from the start. Didn't mean it was easy, but what that is any good is easy?

    Since I follow pretty much the same rule, treat every one the same regardless of gender. I'm on Laura's side, she is 100% on target with how to address the issue.

    As a side story, when Jon Bluming was here, there was a young buck at the seminar, an Army Lieutenant, early 20's and quite full of himself. I had just been smashed in the throat a few minutes earlier was was having some trouble breathing prior to starting to work on the ground drills with this guy. (turned out to be I had some damage to the cricoid cartilage) Young buck wasn't paying attention when I tapped to show I needed to take a break. I got pissed and whacked him a couple good ones upside the head to get his attention and tapped him out. Then went and sat down. Laura was then paired up with him and you could see this guy puffing up to show off. Laura then proceeded to tap him out three times in less then 2 minutes.

    When Aaron, Laura's sensei, came over to check on me, I told him what she just did. Aaron made a big deal about it, much to the embarrassment of the young man. Laura, who had been training all of three month, done good. Would she have done as well if she had been catered to in the dojo as a mere female? Doubt it. Young Buck was very upset, his confidence in his masculinity threatened by a woman who was much smaller then himself. He came over to me for sympathy and I told him he was an idiot and could learn a lot if he dropped his macho attitude.

    From my perspective, the playing up to special interests and catering to a person's emotional wants, needs, gender, is just a sure fire way to keep someone from getting any better and getting past their own issues. While it's not something I talk about much, forcing someone to confront themselves is a sensei's job. I know Aaron and I share this sentiment of how to treat students and it seems to work for us. We may differ in how we train, but the common attitude is why we get along.

    Which also explains why I don't get may female students, most come in looking for something to reinforce their emotional wants and needs. I don't cater to that much. Of course, the smell in the dojo keeps most people away. Now, most males come in for the same reason. But they tend to stay longer for the male bonding that comes from beers and food after class.

    Which reminds me, Laura, you still owe me a bowl of Pho and couple springrolls.

  7. #37
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    A couple of cents from the outside ...
    My main fear is that awkward touching thing. I never want to put a hand on a woman for any reason and now that I have one in my class, I am sure that that point will eventually come along. Not that what we do is inappropriate, but it just seems different.
    Don't let it be different! The way I was taught, and the way I believe it should be, is that there is no gender in the dojo. The only people in the dojo are students, and their only requirement is to learn properly. If you treat some of the students differently because of their gender, you are stealing proper training from them and should be ashamed. Everyone has different ideas of how they wish to train. Some people don't want too rough of a training atmosphere while others thrive on it. Gender should be absolutely irrelevent in that regard, and it all starts with the instructor. If the instructor insists that it is irrelevent, the rest of the students will follow suit. I absolutely agree with Neil that everyone should be treated exactly the same within the confines of the dojo.
    Sword styles vary, of course. Ours is supposed to be most like Sekiguchi Ryu (according to Kiyama Hiroshi Sensei) if that helps. The style is rather dynamic, with compression cuts rather than the Eishin-ryu style extended cut.
    That's cool Emily, I never realized that before. Do you guys also do the Sekiguchi tobiichigai?
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Yamamoto
    From my perspective, the playing up to special interests and catering to a person's emotional wants, needs, gender, is just a sure fire way to keep someone from getting any better and getting past their own issues. While it's not something I talk about much, forcing someone to confront themselves is a sensei's job. I know Aaron and I share this sentiment of how to treat students and it seems to work for us. We may differ in how we train, but the common attitude is why we get along.
    And thank you both for being that way. It's improved the quality of my life and taught me alot about how to deal with real world problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Yamamoto
    Which also explains why I don't get may female students, most come in looking for something to reinforce their emotional wants and needs. I don't cater to that much. Of course, the smell in the dojo keeps most people away. Now, most males come in for the same reason. But they tend to stay longer for the male bonding that comes from beers and food after class.
    Actually, I think it is just the smell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Yamamoto
    Which reminds me, Laura, you still owe me a bowl of Pho and couple springrolls.

    Arm wrestle you for it? Actually, I take that back. Then I'd owe you two bowls.
    Laura Joffe

  9. #39
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    Yes, we have all been trying to say this all along, so dont think we want softy ooh be carefull thats me nail gone, the past two or three posters have you read all the post before, if you have maybe we were not clear, for this sorry.. what we have meant is, there are some of us gals who will turn up anywhere and get stuckin whatever and never have a big problem... But a female fighter can be nutured into an extremley fearsome fighter ..not all girls want the !!!! kicked out of them and a few ribs broken on there first night ...I think respect and the appropriate behavior to each individual is what we all mean man woman and beast and I know a few of them too
    Jax English

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by deaddoll
    Yes, we have all been trying to say this all along, so dont think we want softy ooh be carefull thats me nail gone, the past two or three posters have you read all the post before, if you have maybe we were not clear, for this sorry.. what we have meant is, there are some of us gals who will turn up anywhere and get stuckin whatever and never have a big problem... But a female fighter can be nutured into an extremley fearsome fighter ..not all girls want the !!!! kicked out of them and a few ribs broken on there first night ...I think respect and the appropriate behavior to each individual is what we all mean man woman and beast and I know a few of them too

    I think that you have been saying this in your posts but I am hearing some different things about the subject from different posters. Your posts are a bit colloquial British so I had to do a re-read on them. Not that colloquialisms are bad, I just didn't understand everything from the first read-through. (I had to re-read bums and tums until I figured out that you meant was what American English would colloquially refer to as butts and guts. LOL @ me!) Not that you should have to post differently. But after reading your posts a few times through, it sounds like you went and worked out and didn't stress about discrepancies between men and women. But other folks have had to find their way to dojos that suited them. And from what I read of Emily's experiences, it sounds like she has really looked into the subject from the angle of attracting more women into the dojo and how to address it. If you are hoping to make dojos more "female friendly" then the larger culture of martial arts would probably have to change, as would our cultures in general. It seems like Emily was saying this as well. But after reading through many of the posts, I didn't feel like anyone was really boiling the issue down to point. It was being talked around.

    Honestly, though, I was responding to the specific point that 7th samurai was making about there being a woman in the club and his uncertainty as to how to address it.
    Laura Joffe

  11. #41
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    Good stuff! Thanks for the responses.

    I suppose a few things that I should add are my personal experiences regarding females in the club. One occassion that comes to mind involved a lady in her late 30's who decided to take join the class with one of her lady friends. At the end of one class, we all paired off for sparring. When she stepped in front of me, I could tell she was a bit apprehensive about squaring off against me. That in mind, I let her come to me. My instructor just wanted her to get used to actually hitting someone and making contact with another person. So she threw a few punches and started with a few kicks. At one point, she threw a kick and I raised my leg to block like I pretty much always do. She made shin to shin contact, when down and had to be carried off of the mat. It's something that I always do, kind of a reflex, and it never bothers me when I catch a shin there (been playing soccer for 26 years). Later that week, she phoned my instructor to claim that she went to the Dr., was advised to stay at home. She never returned to class and I am told by my instructor (a female) that this person felt I used excessive force and claims to have spent the better part of two months nursing her injury.

    I suppose my reaction to seeing this this new person attending the class on Saturday is that the people that normally show up come in knowing full well the nature of the class and the reasons we train the way that we do. It is just different.

    I won't be changing the way that we do things since I feel that this is what we are there to do in the first place. I am really excited to have a female in there trying it out. I always worry when I see one trying things out that they are going to think that we're hitting too hard, that throw was a bit much, etc. At the same time, I want them to realize that this is what it feels like to get hit, this is what it feels like to fall down when someone is trying to put you there, and this is what you have to do to get out of it. I don't like what I see sometimes at demonstrations or seminars when you have a female student going through the motions of a technique without really knowing what it is like to put up a fight.
    ERIC DANIEL WARD

  12. #42
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    Default In reply to 7th Samurai's use of "excessive force"

    First let me reiterate what deaddoll said about not needing to beat the crap out of folks the first time they walk into a room. New students, male or female are rarely good enough to step onto the mat and do the regular workout that senior students do. However...
    There are always people who come into the club not realizing that they are getting in over their heads. I have seen guys come into our club once and never come back because they can't handle the workout. I was working with a guy on his second class one night. We were doing newazaa and we were both in high-fours face to face. I moved around to his side, pushed him over and pinned him. He never came back. I mean all I did was pin him! I think he was too out of shape, though, because he walked off the mat and barfed. Anyway, I have seen women come for 3-6 months and not come back because they have injuries and can't deal with it after awhile. If what you are doing is any good, lots of people are going to turn on their heels and walk out. It's just the nature of it. It's like anything else. I have a close friend who stopped running because her knees "hurt." Truth? She didn't like going running. She moved to another city and joined a field hockey team. Funny, people who play field hockey run a hell of alot. When I started training at my club, I wanted to be there. I got hurt at times and still do and that's just something I accept about it. I knew from the beginning that I was doing a contact sport and knew that it would be tough. What's funny is that when I first started, I was so bad at it that the only person who could have really done any harm to me was me. I was impossible to wrestle because I would just freak out and go rigid. After awhile you learn how to move. That's just part and parcel of any activity.
    Last edited by bhoutros; 23rd February 2006 at 00:45.
    Laura Joffe

  13. #43
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    I understand what you're saying. I have seen weight lifters come to class thinking that bigger means better and then not come back after they find out that having muscle doesn't always mean you're going to win. It's a learning process for me as I've never been faced with this situation before.
    ERIC DANIEL WARD

  14. #44
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    Hi everybody.Nice topic.First off,I don't practice martial arts myself.I did some karate back when I was little but I dropped out .However the topic is interesting cos I have always been unable to cope with unfair accusations(allegations).I personally(I am a man)would,cos of my own history(my mother used to make me feel guilty all the time for things I didn't do)change my behaviour if a woman accused me of touching her breasts on purpose during training.Now,she might have issues of her own,that's not my point.But an unfair accusation outside of the dojo(ie,saying this man is a pig,he touched my breasts when training)would still make me feel unease and not cos I don't like touching breasts,cos of the unfair allegation.I plan on starting aikido,although as I said in an old post here,the nearest dojo is 50 km's from here and I have no car,so far.Well,that's another problem though.So that is an issue for men who have a personal history of unfair allegations,specially from women.It might be the same for women who had unfair allegations from men also,although I believe(I might be wrong)those are rare.So,when all's said and done this might be an issue for the "weaker"persons out there,ie persons who can't stand an unfair allegation.Regards,Massimo
    Massimo Viti

  15. #45
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    Default Sidebar: Sekiguchi Ryu etc

    Quote Originally Posted by pgsmith
    That's cool Emily, I never realized that before. Do you guys also do the Sekiguchi tobiichigai?
    Heya Paul,

    Emily's statement is based on conversations I had with Kiyama Hiroshi Sensei (who's got more roku- and nanadans in more arts than I can remember, but Peter Boylan coule enlighten us to the details if he's paying attention) a few years back.

    I'd taken a handful of students up to Peter's place in Detroit to meet and train with Kiyama Sensei for several days (had a blast! He's a very cool guy and a truly outstanding teacher). Toward the end of the shindig, he asked me to demo some of our sword basics. He watched, asked for more, then asked if we also did kempo and jujutsu, and asked for a demo (Jody Holeton kindly consented to uke for me).

    I answered in the affirmative and he started chatting about his old days, when he'd gotten a teaching license in Sekiguchi Ryu, but had stopped practicing it after the war. He said what we were doing looked and felt like the style he'd learned as a young man.

    That's the only point of info we have to go on, but after watching a few Sekiguchi vids, there's a lot there that feels familiar. I can only hope to get to Japan (Kiyama S. has invited me to come over and meet the current Sekiguchi headmaster someday) or get together with some folks who've been inthe organization to learn more and determine if, indeed, there is a connection.

    If there is, I suspect it got filtered and altered in transition somewhere, and probably got mashed-up with Seitei a bit. Our first few batto kata are shaped very similar to Mae, Ushiro, Uke Nagashi, etc., though the approach is different and we don't use seiza at all (the Cuhden set is done starting from iai-goshi, however ).

    We use a foot-switching tactic (I was taught it was called chidori ashi), similar to, but not as dramatic as tobiichigai, or atl east the one demo'd in the tapes I've seen.

    One of my personal ambitions is to track down all the influences to the system and codify it a bit more. My teacher, gods love him, wasn't very good at that sort of thing ...

    Chuck
    Chuck Gordon
    Mugendo Budogu
    http://www.budogu.com/

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