The Origin of Nunchaku

[JasonW]

Hi Brian,

>...I've never pounded beans. (With apologies to JasonW.)

Pounding beans? With a nunchaku? Can you imagine the mess that would make...bean paste flying everywhere! I think you'd get more on the floor and the walls than what'd be left in the pot.

Can't really see that as a *logical* use for a nunchaku...but then, I never pounded beans either.

Edit: Actually now that I think about it, my wife has. But she used a mortar and pestle - you know, the vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true...

[Prince Loeffler]

Now what exactly is the use for the rice flail ? If Okinawa does not have "Rice Paddies" , Does Japan have rice paddies ?

[JasonW]

Sure they had rice in Okinawa. They grow it now, and they grew it at least as early as the 1850's, though of course its not in the same quantities as the mainland or its SE Asian neighbours, and they would have also imported a fair bit.

Which goes to say though yeah, they definitely could have had a rice flail, ...if they needed one for flailing rice with. But they also grew other grains, and if they flailed them, whether it be with a rice flail or a general grain flail, you would probably have a gadget that looked pretty much like a rice flail...so I don't think you could argue against nunchaku being a modified flail on the basis of whether they had grains to flail or not, but rather on the basis of whether or not nunchaku were a modified flail at all...

...I think that reads as what I was trying to say...

Edit: Interesting, I just did a Google image search on "rice flail" and all the sites that came up were karate sites that depicted a set of nunchakus or a 3 sectional staff. The only actual rice flailing implement that came up was from Korea, and looked nothing like a nunchaku. So perhaps this is a karate myth, that nunchaku come from a rice flail...


cheers,

[RobertRousselot]

1) Sure they had rice in Okinawa. They grow it now, and they grew it at least as early as the 1850's, though of course its not in the same quantities as the mainland or its SE Asian neighbours, and they would have also imported a fair bit.

2) Which goes to say though yeah, they definitely could have had a rice flail, ...if they needed one for flailing rice with. But they also grew other grains, and if they flailed them, whether it be with a rice flail or a general grain flail, you would probably have a gadget that looked pretty much like a rice flail...so I don't think you could argue against nunchaku being a modified flail on the basis of whether they had grains to flail or not, but rather on the basis of whether or not nunchaku were a modified flail at all...

...I think that reads as what I was trying to say...

3) Edit: Interesting, I just did a Google image search on "rice flail" and all the sites that came up were karate sites that depicted a set of nunchakus or a 3 sectional staff. The only actual rice flailing implement that came up was from Korea, and looked nothing like a nunchaku. So perhaps this is a karate myth, that nunchaku come from a rice flail...


cheers,

1) I think if you re-read Jurgens post you will see he said they didn't grow "much" rice in Okinawa. One of the reasons being that the content of the soil doesn't produce good rice.

2) It's possible but most of the evidnce that supports that claim is "urban legend" and not based on fact. If we apply the same logic to the Naihanchi Kata myth would it justify the reason for Naihanchi going only side to side? Hopefully not.

3) One has to consider the source of the information not the quantity.

[TimJurgens]

The two nunchakku kata we do are Maizato no Nunchaku and Akamine no Nunchaku both of which are less than 50 years old. Granted the weapons had been around longer but not as formalized kata that were worth preserving at least in Taira Shinken Sensei's mind.

I can tell you the soil in Okinawa was good for getting stuck to the bottom of field boots and M151 and then later HMMWV tires but I have never seen a rice patty there. I just asked my wife who is from Shuri and she said yes there are a few fields there but she couldn't tell me where just that she thought there were a few here or there. She then went on to say Sugar Cane and Pineapple were the main crops. Sorry I had forgotten about pineapple in my previous post. In fact that is the Okinawa to Hawaii connection but that is a different thread. Suffice to say that the rice there probably came in as trade goods from elsewhere preflailed so to speak

Point is that there are many many many urban myths about martial arts and I would have to believe that this is one.

BTW we have san bon nunchaku in our Hombu but no one knows a kata for them so either it was forgotten or someone dropped off a set as a gift. That happens from time to time.

I will also say that the Okinawan way of using the nunchaku and the Chinese way of using them. In the Okinawan way the grip is far away from the string. In the Chinese way it is closer to the string. The Okinawan way allows for blocking with the top part of the handle but makes it more difficult to flail rice.... I mean your opponent.

[Sanseru]

Hello Tim:

Just a couple of points and questions. My own teacher, Minowa Katsuhiko, stated that in Taira's dojo there were a few weapons that they never used and/or there were no kata for them such as Ticchu, Yon Shaku Bo and of course the San Bon Nunchaku. Although I do remember Minowa sensei saying that there were "techniques" for some of the weapons.

Also, when was Maezato no Nunchaku Dai renamed Akamine no Nunchaku in the Akamine lineage? Was this before or after his passing?

Kindest regards,

[RobertRousselot]

I remembered why Okinawan rice is not very good. It has something to do with the high level of calcium found in the soil due to the fact that Okinawa is basically located on/made out of one big piece of coral.

[TimJurgens]

Hello Tim:

Just a couple of points and questions. My own teacher, Minowa Katsuhiko, stated that in Taira's dojo there were a few weapons that they never used and/or there were no kata for them such as Ticchu, Yon Shaku Bo and of course the San Bon Nunchaku. Although I do remember Minowa sensei saying that there were "techniques" for some of the weapons.

Also, when was Maezato no Nunchaku Dai renamed Akamine no Nunchaku in the Akamine lineage? Was this before or after his passing?

Kindest regards,

They are different kata with a similar embusen. We use the Maezato no Nunchaku for 1st Kyu Grading and Akamine no Nunchaku for Shodan.

In the Hombu now there are Escrima left behind as a gift by Jun Cabarellio and some of his students, a wodden rifle left behind by a practioner of Jukendo, some iaito which are display models only, Sanbon Nunchaku as mentioned, a 9 Shaku bo which has a kata that had been lost by some and then recreated by some others and possibly remembered by a couple. I don know that a Ticchu is and I haven't seen Jo which is the same as a 4 Shakku Bo I would guess.

With 35 kata (some lost) as it is there is not much time for a lot of freelancing.

[Sanseru]

Hi Tim:

I know that the two kata have essentially the same enbusen, but they did originally start out as Maezato no nunchaku sho and dai. So, as I asked previously, do you know when Maezato no nunchaku dai was renamed to Akamine no nunchaku?

I would agree that there are a lot of different weapons throughout kobudo, some minor, some major, and with the limited amount of time that a person has to practice, inevitably some get discarded or downplayed.

Cheers,

[joe yang]

For a more thorough web search, try "threshing flair". Threshing by the way is not removing the grain from the stalk per say. That is accomplished by beating the stalks against the threshing floor. Threshing breaks open the hulls, part of the seperation process, which includes winnowing. By the way, is it possible the winnowing basket influenced developement of another obscure weapon, the frisbee, which according to realultimatepower, the ninja can use to commit seppuka? Sorry, I'll go back to baffling budo now.

[TimJurgens]

Hi Tim:

I know that the two kata have essentially the same enbusen, but they did originally start out as Maezato no nunchaku sho and dai. So, as I asked previously, do you know when Maezato no nunchaku dai was renamed to Akamine no nunchaku?

I would agree that there are a lot of different weapons throughout kobudo, some minor, some major, and with the limited amount of time that a person has to practice, inevitably some get discarded or downplayed.

Cheers,

I am unaware of the second kata ever being called Maezato. As you probably know Maezato is Taira Shinken Sensei's birth name prior to his adoption. The kata was named after the composer and I was always told that Akamine Esuke Sensei composed the second kata.

http://ryukyu-kobudo.com/kata/kata_system.htm

We have listed the composers of each Kata as we know them and as Akamine Hiroshi Sensei has approved.

[dsomers]

There is another Nunchaku Kata taught within our system, by my instructor, Nakamoto Masahiro Sensei, Nichou Nunchaku. Does anyone know of the history of this kata? Does any of Taira Sensei's other students teach this Kata in their curriculum? I know John Sells teaches a version of Nichou Nunchaku, & seen one other instructor perform the same Kata, but I am not sure if this is the same Kata taught within our system.

David

[Sanseru]

Hello Tim:

I guess that we will have to agree to disagree :-) as my instructor (Minowa Katsuhiko) had taught me that both kata were originally called Maezato.

David:

I believe this kata was developed by Nakamoto sensei in the 1970's. In fact in the Taira 7th anniversary memorial demo, Nakamoto sensei is down for performing Niccho Nunchaku. My instructor picked this kata up from Nakamoto sensei in the 1980's and called it Nakamoto no Niccho Nunchaku (apparently Nakamoto sensei did not like having the kata named after him :-). He passed it on to Kinjo Masakazu and Yoshimura Hiroshi. I learned it last year when Yoshimura sensei came to Vancouver to give a seminar. So, at least in Minowa's lineage it is part of the curriculum.

Cheers,

[dsomers]

Thanks for the reply. Do you know if this is in fact the same Kata John Sells demonstrates on video, or if Nakamoto Sensei's Kata is a different one entirely? Thank you as always, for your help.

David

[Sanseru]

Hi David:

I can't comment on Mr. Sells' kata as I have never seen it.

Regards,