Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 20

Thread: Tandoku Renshu

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    262
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Where do the Tandoku Renshu, Ni Ju Ni and San Ju Ichi, come from? I've heard them often referred to as kata by most Aikidoka, which according to D. Lowry they are not. Are they exclusive to Aikido or do they hail from older sources? I don't know if this has been asked before, but I was unable to find an answer on any older thread. If I missed one let me know.

    Thanks,
    Rob Erman

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    DC
    Posts
    49
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    This is a good question (as in I'm not sure about my answers). If we are talking about the same solo kata, the 22 step one came from Tomiki Sensei, and the 31 step one comes from Saito Sensei. I can't find my "Dynamic Sphere" book-- I think the 22 step kata is in it (not sure, does any one else have it handy?).

    I know Saotome Sensei frowns when ever he sees one of his students doing the 31 step kata, so I hope it didn't come from their teacher .
    Robert Deppe

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    262
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Yeah, Ni Ju Ni is in Dynamic Sphere. But there is no history given on it, except that it is widely practiced in Aikido dojo across the world. Interesting about Saotome frowning on "31". I would have sworn that he borrowed heavily from it after seeing his Jo video. Many of the movements looked like they came directly from it.

    Interesting little side note; I remember learning a form called Aiki Bo Go Rei at a seminar from a Japanese aikidoka from Kansas City(can't remember the name but he is the 2IC of Oyata's karate organization, also). What I can remember of the form was almost identical to San Ju Ichi, except it was a Bo kata, obviously.

    Dream True,

    [Edited by R Erman on 12-03-2000 at 10:07 PM]
    Rob Erman

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Denton, Texas
    Posts
    625
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    I've never heard of Tomiki sensei being involved with the 22 jo kata. Can anyone confirm this?

    Jack Bieler
    The Dojo of Traditional Japanese Martial Arts
    Denton, Texas

  5. #5
    Timo Guest

    Default

    Isn't Tandoku Renshu a training methode.
    Training with a imaginary partner?!

    Timo

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    moving to Westerly R.I.
    Posts
    230
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by Timo
    Isn't Tandoku Renshu a training methode.
    Training with a imaginary partner?!

    Timo
    This is what out sensei refers to our practice of the Kihon waza at the begining of Jodo class. Yes it is practicing against an imaginary person.
    Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow...
    ...that's what makes my thumper go

  7. #7
    Meik Skoss Guest

    Default

    T. Peters wrote" This is what out sensei refers to our practice of the kihon waza at the begining of jodo class. Yes it is practicing against an imaginary person.

    (The original question by Timo-something...: "Isn't tandoku renshu a training method? Training with an imaginary partner?")

    That really depends on just what one is doing. In jodo, at least with kihon waza, these terms, literally (and merely) mean "individual practice/training" (tandoku renshu" and "paired/partnered practice/training" (sotai renshu) and do not carry any implication about "opponents," whether actual or imaginary. One trains to improve the performance of the movements, by oneself or with a partner, but they're really more idealized forms, not practical techniques. At least in kihon waza.

    When one is doing hitori geiko (i.e., tandoku renshu) with kata, it is (or can be) a different story. There, one can imagine an opponent/enemy and hack 'n thwack, and/or slice 'n dice, all one wants. But with proper technique, please!

    I think, though, if people think *too* much about all that deadly stuff and/or how they're smiting their enemies, that it'll lead to some serious idiocy and a lot of interference in both their technical and spiritual development as far as budo is concerned. Sure, train for effect, but go overboard and it becomes either idiotic or psychotic (or both). Best to try to keep a sense of perspective, huh?

    And a couple of questions for you aiki-types: since when is it a 22-movement kata? When Tohei showed it to us, back in the mid-'60s, it was nijuichi no jo, not nijuni. Where did the extra movement come in, and what is it? Oh, yeah, and what happened with Saito's jusan no jo? Is that now passe? Or what?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    262
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    First off, the name of the Japanese gentleman that I mrentioned teaching the Bo form is Shintaku. Don't know his first name.

    Now onto this tandoku renshu discussion. I have no idea why, or if, the names have changed. Maybe the exercises were modified to include extra movements. It would be kind of dumb to continue to call them a certain number, if, in fact, that number is no longer correct. Also, I've met few people who could pinpoint exactly which moves in the form are the numbered movements. Even in ..Dynamic Sphere they have two number 17 strikes. Now that book is not the end authority on nijuni, but it is probably the most widely read book dealing with nijuni. The version that I was taught has so many subtle movements that could easily be strikes that I could easily count over 21 or 22.

    As to Jusan, I guess that is sanjuichi, I don't know why it isn't as popular as 22. You might ask D Lowry since he focussed on it in his Jo book. Heck, unless you were just being flippant and really do know the answers to the questions you asked, Mr Lowry may know the answers himself. Why don't you ask him?

    Now, you mentioned that doing hitori geiko with kata is different than doing them in the kihon fashion, would exploring application with these exercises make them kata? Or are they still considered tandoku renshu?

    Cheers,
    Rob Erman

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Palo Alto, Ca, USA
    Posts
    1,324
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Strictly from the perspective of the Japanese language, tandoku renshu just means solo practice. You can practice either the kihon (basic techniques and movements) or kata (or anything else for that matter). If you`re practicing alone, you are doing tandoku renshu. If you are practcing with a partner you are doing sotai renshu.
    Earl Hartman

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    111
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Apples 'n Oranges

    I realize that you all know this, but just in case there's a lurker or two out there... Beyond the question of language (tandoku renshu meaning solo practice), different people are talking about two entirely different sorts of jo. If you want to know about aiki jo kata (the numbered kata referred to in various posts above), perhaps the aikido forum would be a better place to inquire. The purpose of tandoku renshu in SMR jo is quite different than in aiki jo, so answers pertaining to SMR (i.e. what you might get in this forum) won't necessarily be particularly relevant to aiki jo.

    To the best of my knowledge the jo movement patterns in aikido were developed in this century by Ueshiba and Tohei and Tomiki (and Saito?--my memory's not what it used to be), and while there may be echoes of bayonet/spear, they are not connected explicitly to any older tradition. They are most definitely exclusive to aikido.

  11. #11
    Meik Skoss Guest

    Default jusan = sanjuichi (NOT!!!!)

    R. Erman wrote: "As to Jusan [no jo], I guess that is Sanjuichi [no jo], I don't know why it isn't as popular as 22. You might ask D. Lowry since he focussed on it in his jo book. Heck, unless you're just being flippant and really do know the answers to the questions you asked, Mr. Lowry may know the answers himself. Why don't you ask him?"

    Mr. Erman, I really have better things to do than sandbag people with leading questions. Give me some credit, huh? My question was in earnest: I recall doing Jusan no jo as well as Sanjuichi no jo back in the distant past, when I was still an aiki bunny, and of late I haven't heard anything from any of the Saito-types I know about the 13-movement sequence.

    In any event, jusan means 13 and sanjuichi means 31. Maybe you are doing some sort of New Math ("Truth is Relative"?), but I reckon there's at least junana (hon) in between them. But, then, that'd be Tomiki-style, right? (*Now* I'm being flippant. If that's okay with you?)

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    262
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Mr Skoss,

    At the risk of being a little flippant, sardonic, and sarcastic, myself, did I just make an enemy? Or are you just showing that "koryu snobbery" that runs rampant amongst some people on this forum?

    I understand more than a little(not near as much as you, I concede) about japanese. And I understand the difference between 13[no jo] and 31[no jo]. I had, however, never heard of a 13 movement practice and was trying to find out what you were talking about, since this thread was primarily about 22 and 31[both no jo], and only generally about tandoku renshu. My time hopping as an "aiki-bunny" hasn't exposed me to a 13 movement form.

    Sorry if my somewhat joking statement offended your cultured and erudite sensibilities. Perhaps I should go to my cave and conduct a seance, so that I might contact August F Mobius, or Pythagoras to work on that "new math"(which, incidentally, is a phrase that I've used numerous times. Alas, turnabout is fair play).

    Dream True,

    [Edited by R Erman on 12-13-2000 at 01:00 PM]
    Rob Erman

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    111
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Please be careful when trying to be funny

    Dear Mr. Erman,

    Meik was trying to be funny with some gentle twitting. It doesn't come off well in this media (which in fact is true of many of the subtlties of communication).

    To all--please do be aware of the incredible limitations of bulletin board communications and try to cast your contributions accordingly.

    Thanks!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    262
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    To all,

    At the risk of sounding like I'm trying to excuse my actions...I've been a little under the weather lately, so I may not be as gracious as normal. I apologize if I took improper offense, and indirectly heightened any tension. The bottom line is, I came to this forum with my question precisely because of the Skoss's knowledge in the subject matter.

    Harmless nettling is part and parcel of any discussion group, and as I kinda hinted in my last post, in parens, Meik's post may be a form of karma, as I've been guilty of the same before.

    No Hard Feelings,

    [Edited by R Erman on 12-14-2000 at 07:18 PM]
    Rob Erman

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    nj
    Posts
    129
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by R Erman
    My time hopping as an "aiki-bunny" hasn't exposed me to a 13 movement form.
    From my limited Aikido experience, I am under the impression that the 13 jo kata was part of the Aikikai syllabus; at least that kata is taught in the Hong Kong and New Jersey schools that I am familiar with.

    If you can't find someone who's familiar with the kata, check out Saito's aiki news jo tape.

    Best,
    John Mark

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Daito-ryu Hiden Mokuroku and the book "Budo Renshu"
    By Ernesto Lemke in forum Aikijujutsu
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 26th November 2003, 17:11
  2. "Chating" no Renshu
    By pacocomeron in forum Sword Arts
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 19th August 2001, 20:52
  3. Renshu no toki
    By Rik in forum Language
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 4th September 2000, 11:14

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •