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Thread: Christianity & the martial arts (Budo) article I wrote

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inazuma
    Would you say that all Martial Arts, Budo, Etc. would follow suite to fit within the teachings of Jesus?
    Would all paths of Christianity able, and indeed willing to embrace such teachings as those of the Martial nature (Budo, Bushi, Bujutsu, all definitions relating to War, and the intent to Kill)?
    What about etiquette such as giving respect and prayer to Kami such as Marishiten?
    Arts that have developed along to become sportive, oriented around competitions, would their practice be endorsed by Jesus? (What do the Christian teaching say about winning by subduing others?)

    I do have some more questions, but I'll have to think how to phrase them...
    Amir,

    You raise some very good questions. I will try to answer them as best as I can. Do I think Christianity embraces martial arts, such as Budo? If you would read my article, I point out that Budo translated into english means a way of stopping spear. What is a spear usually used for? Is not generally used for some type of violent act? I would say so. So, if it is a way of stopping a spear, wouldnt that be considered a way of stopping violence? I did not look in your profile, nor do I know if it is listed, so I do not know what style of martial arts you practice. However, within Karate we believe in Karate Ni Sente Nashi, or there is no 1st attack in karate. Indicating it is a art of self defense, not offensive. I think he would not have a problem at all w/ you defending yourself. What do I think his thoughts were in preparing for war, as stated previously: in Psalms 144:1, it tells us, "Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight". In regards to killing, I do believe that is one of his commandments, is it not? Thou shall not Kill. Like I said, I am not a pastor, priest, or anything like that, I'm just a guy sharing what I love. That is a very good question. I do know killing is a sin, & you can be forgiven for it. However, I cannot give you an answer at this time. I will research it, & get back to you. The same thing on martial sports/competition. I will research it, & get back to you. Please know this will take me sometime, it might not be today, it might not be tommorow, but will find you the answers eventually. Thank you for your questions, they are very thought provoking.

    David
    PS, almost forgot one more question you brought up:
    What about etiquette such as giving respect and prayer to Kami such as Marishiten?
    I personally dont bow down to any other Gods. I dont know what others do. I do teach, & perform Rei, but it is not a bow of worship. When I bow, it can be used as a sign of salutation, thanks, respect, but, never out of worship. I've often thought of getting a Kamiza, & actually placing either a picture, or small statue of jesus in it. When I bow to Shomen, at the begining, & end of training, like I said it is not a bow of worship, it it a bow of thanks, & respect. I am bowing cause I am thanking the forfathers of our art, for creating this art, & the teachings they passed on, & to show them respect. As long as i know that, that is all that matters.
    Last edited by dsomers; 22nd February 2006 at 09:57.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hattori
    Did he?



    Sound peaceful to you? Or how about -



    or



    or



    or



    Seems warfare and killing a VERY compatible with Christians.
    Mr. Kemlo,

    It's getting a little late, can, & will answer all of your questions, or address your comments. But, I think you should read the whole chapter thouroughly, w/ an open mind, & it will answer any questions you may have. If not, I will address them as best as I can later in the morning. I just got in from work, it's already past 5 am, & need to do some other things before I get to bed. Some more studying among other things. But, if you do not find the answers within the whole chapter you quoted some verses from, I will be more than happy to address them, when i wake up.

    David

  3. #18
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    Mr. Kemlo wrote:

    Quote:
    Christ preached peace.



    Did he?


    Quote:
    "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." – Matthew 10:34



    Sound peaceful to you? Or how about -


    Quote:
    "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." – Matthew 10.35,36



    or


    Quote:
    " If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." – Luke 14.26



    or


    Quote:
    "And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." – Matthew 10.21



    or


    Quote:
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke.22:36



    Seems warfare and killing a VERY compatible with Christians.

    My reply:
    If you look at Matt 10:1 it states : And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
    If you skip down to verse 7 it states: And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. In verse 11 it states: And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. In verse 32, an 33 it states: Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. In verse 37-42 it states: He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

    He is warning you/us, because even in the begining of time he said in Gen 6:13 : And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

    So he knew even back then that we were gonna sin, & he said it, the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

    If you go on to mark 13 he warns you further, but he wants you to be prepared, because in John 3:16 it states : For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Further it tells us in Romans 10, that we should believe, please look into it. He knows that we are sinners, and wants us to believe, because in Romans 3:23 it states, for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God. Please also read isaiah 30:25 on down, it will scare you. He wants you to be prepared. All this stuff is comming true, as he said, and was written, so he wants you to be prepared.

    David

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    Amir,

    To answer your question regarding killing please look to these websites, you will find the answers there:
    http://i.1asphost.com/waimius/interp...ns/killing.htm
    http://www.geocities.com/a_christian_conservative/
    I still have not forgotten about your question regarding martial sports, competiveness, etc. Please give me more time.

    David

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    Default jesus didnt write it

    one thing i would like to add also is that the bible was not written by Jesus Christ but by his deciples so they may have added or not added some important detail.


    dan waterbury

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    Dan,

    Yes, you are correct, it was not written by Jesus. But, if you read through what is called the gospel of the bible, Matt., Mark, Luke, & John; You will read many things, & it will seem like Dejavu, like you read it before; or that you have read something very similar. Reason being, is because each of these people were witness's to this stuff happening, & they are telling how they seen it.
    But, it also states in ephesians 2:11-22
    One in Christ
    11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
    14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

    19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

    Further down it is written in eph 4:2-6;
    2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    If you look back in Romans 15:20-21 it states:
    20It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else's foundation. 21Rather, as it is written:
    "Those who were not told about him will see,
    and those who have not heard will understand."

    Again go to isaiah 30:25, mark 13, matt 36:44, to see of recent things that have come to pass, and will come shortly.
    This is why the bible is the truth, and I believe. I personally know because I have lived Isaiah 54:17. That is why I believe!

  7. #22
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    Mr Somers,

    I have read your article and question the following statement, which I quote:

    "Budo, or martial ways, is just like it says, a way of life. But, lets look further into the characters/kanji of Budo. Bu is made up of two characters, one being for the character of stop, the other of the character spear. Do, also sometimes pronounced michi, is often translated as way. So, the characters put together mean way of stopping the spear; so this indicates it is a way of stopping violence."

    This is a common peaceful interpretation of BU and I have heard at least one aikido shihan give this explanation during a seminar, in support of his general opinion that aikido is dedicated to world peace. However, do you have any specific evidence for this interpretation?

    There is another body of opinion, according to which BU is made up of two characters: one for 'halberd', one for 'foot' or 'stride', and the character means 'forward progress with a weapon': a meaning according to which BU would mean 'start' violence as much as 'stop' it, or stop it in a violent fashion.

    In Japanese kanji dictionaries, for example, Morohashi's Dai Kanwa Jiten, the interpretation you have given is there, but the interpretation I have given is also there and older than yours. So we might say that the interpretation of the character by Chinses scholars follows the actual politics of empire-building.

    Best wishes,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

  8. #23
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    What is up with a Senior Moderator posting the same message a dozen times?
    Respectfully
    Mark W. Swarthout, Shodan

  9. #24
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    Default christianity and MA

    Hey,

    Im a christian (trying to be), and I am in my 4th year of studying theology in college (not that that means anything just giving background information on myself). I study traditional jujutsu.

    Firstly as a christian, a martial artist and as a human being that I have a responcibility to address injustice in society and in our communities. I have found that this can be done through the martial arts. Practicing martial arts keeps people off the streets and gives them a social outlet to express themselves which can be the cause of many social disturbances etc. For example I know a couple of guys who had drink and drug problems. They started martial arts and because of the training and the general atmosphere and fudoshin development they no longer take drugs and their drinking is under control to an acceptable level.

    With regard to turning the other cheek. I believe that this is an attitude that a christian should have (I see it as a human philosophy and not just a christian thing). Its not a combat thing. The guy hits you and you say here the other one to. No. Its a bit like the Japanese way of not letting anyone loose face. I have a right to defend myself and my family. But I dont have the right to hate that person for attacking me nor do I have the right to close off the oppertunity for healing in that suitation between both parties involved. It could be your drunk uncle attacking you because you know martial arts!

    I dont like how one particular part of Sripture is used in isolation. The Bible is a collection of teaching and anything in it should not been seen without its place in the entirity of that teaching. For example turn the other cheek is in responce to "eye for eye" being used out of context by people in that culture.

    Another point that I would like to address is the compatability of martial arts and christianity. Why not. ok "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword". Well what is your sword training all about. When I practice bikenjutsu everythime I cut I am cuting down my ego. The sword was used to end conflict and this is how I see it. Its not a weapon but a tool to end conflict. Sure it was used to attack but that was also to end some conflict (not all conflict is physical). The japanese understanding of the sword and the culture associated with it is unlike anyother that I have seen (could be wrong) and this gives me a mental approach to christianity that I would nt have had without the martial arts.

    Want to say some other stuff esp on the kamidana but I hate reading posts that are too long and Ive waffled to much already.

    Thanks guys,

    John Timmons
    Son of Ironfist
    Ryoshin Dojo
    Dublin
    Ireland

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    Goldsbury Sensei,

    Thank you for your reply. As written on my article, this is my idea of what Budo is from my perspective. Budo, just like religion, of any type, is often times something very personal. While, I have to admit, I did not know about that translation of the Kanji, at this point in time, I would have to say, that this is not my way of thinking personally. I hope you understand, what I am trying to say. That I do accept it, as an interpretation, but it is not the interpretation that I believe in, maybe that makes more sense. Thank you for pointing that out to me, I will put more thought, & prayer into it though. I have to meet w/ my Pastor today for lunch, so I am printing out this discussion to see what his thoughts are, & maybe he can provide me w/ some more knowledge to help me answer some of the unanswered questions.
    Thank you very much for sharing that w/ me though, as I have never known.

    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsomers
    As written on my article, this is my idea of what Budo is from my perspective. Budo, just like religion, of any type, is often times something very personal.
    yea... you know, it's really best not to bring to much of yourself into your art, especially if you want to keep it traditional. you do know that when you kiai, you're applying kotodama theory from shinto. and you know that when you bow to the kamiza, you're paying respect to the religion of your grand master and not expressing any warship of your own. (therefore if you do put jesus on your kamiza it could be dimly viewed by some practitioners) but, still finding scripture related to doka was quite original (and therefore commendable) thanks for sharing!
    colin (katsu) dunlap
    I hate "smileys" :mad:

  12. #27
    Mark Murray Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by momoyama katsu
    yea... you know, it's really best not to bring to much of yourself into your art, especially if you want to keep it traditional. you do know that when you kiai, you're applying kotodama theory from shinto. and you know that when you bow to the kamiza, you're paying respect to the religion of your grand master and not expressing any warship of your own. (therefore if you do put jesus on your kamiza it could be dimly viewed by some practitioners) but, still finding scripture related to doka was quite original (and therefore commendable) thanks for sharing!
    Colin, could you provide some articles or books that detail kiai as kotodama? I tried to think of anywhere I might have read that and drew a blank. Not to say there aren't any, just I really couldn't remember any and it is an interesting subject.

    As for your mention of bowing to kamiza and paying respect to the religion of the grandmaster. Uh, I'd have to disagree with you on that. You're paying respect to the man who accomplished what he did, but not exactly to his religion.

    Thanks,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murray
    Colin, could you provide some articles or books that detail kiai as kotodama? I tried to think of anywhere I might have read that and drew a blank. Not to say there aren't any, just I really couldn't remember any and it is an interesting subject.
    from THE IAIDO NEWSLETTER, and a discussion in kendo-world.com
    As for your mention of bowing to kamiza and paying respect to the religion of the grandmaster. Uh, I'd have to disagree with you on that. You're paying respect to the man who accomplished what he did, but not exactly to his religion.

    Thanks,
    sorry, let me reiterate... okay, we bow to the kamiza to pay respect to the man and what he did but we keep the kamiza and other such memorabilia to respect his religion. (and way of life)
    colin (katsu) dunlap
    I hate "smileys" :mad:

  14. #29
    Mark Murray Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by momoyama katsu
    from THE IAIDO NEWSLETTER, and a discussion in kendo-world.com sorry, let me reiterate... okay, we bow to the kamiza to pay respect to the man and what he did but we keep the kamiza and other such memorabilia to respect his religion. (and way of life)
    Thanks for the links. It's a start for me. Haven't read any of the books mentioned, but I don't do kendo. Still, I wonder if Okinawan karate had the same origins for their kiai? And aikido ... well, Ueshiba was a deeply religious man. But with that said, I find very few in aikido who use kiai as a religious instrument.

    But, yeah, the kamiza can hold religious items. It doesn't have to, but it can. Some only have pictures of the founder, some have more. But, it's mostly a per dojo thing, at least in the places I've been. So, I don't see any reason why you can't have a picture of the founder and a portrait of Jesus.

    Thanks,

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    Quote Originally Posted by murray
    But, yeah, the kamiza can hold religious items. It doesn't have to, but it can.
    the kamiza is a religious item I thought (?)
    So, I don't see any reason why you can't have a picture of the founder and a portrait of Jesus.
    I do: he would be inflicting his religion on both his art and his students. ...but it's his gojuryu nahate kirisutokyo monastery...
    colin (katsu) dunlap
    I hate "smileys" :mad:

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