Ki, Kokyu, and Attitudes

[mikesigman@eart]

In my reading of gozo Shioda's books where he tries to explain Kokyu-ryoku, he essentially describes it as a coordination of mind, body, technique, speed, timing and focused power. So in reading David's response I am inclined to agree that kokyu is "integration" or "organization" of the body.

Like I said, I don't mind Shioda's interpretations ... but bear in mind that these are his students' writings translated (with potential loss of meaning) into English. The key issue is this coordination of mind and body, if you want to infer that David Orange's words of "integration" or "organization" is the same thing. You're more or less saying that a vague terminology covers that bases. What I'm saying is, fine, now tell me exactly what is coordinated, integrated, or organized. I pretty much laid it out already, so if David (or you) disagree with what I defined, then tell me what the real definition of that coordination is and how it works on physical objects. I can show this fairly simple stuff over and over. David disagreed with my definition, so I'm asking for him to say how kokyu power is used. The two instances I'd suggest would be either explain something like Tohei's standing on one leg while someone tries to push him over OR how kokyu is used to push someone over in a simply kokyu throw (they're ALL kokyu throws, in the final analysis).

Regards,

Mike

[cxt]

Murrey

Again, if you understand the point I am making why do you keep bring up seminars???

They have nothing to do with highly questionable claims of fact made by Mike sans the actual "facts" of the matter.

I am asking him to post the "simple physics" that explain 'ki"--as he claimed that he could.

And to address the various errors and holes and mistakes in his spacious conjecture's concerning "death penalties" Ueshiba etc.

That has NOTHING to do with a given persons skills.

Besides, Mike has ALREADY eatablished that he CAN'T personally demonstrate the skills he talks about.
I have already directly asked him "why can't he show me" and he was unable or unwilling to answer.

Which is kinda a pattern.



Chris Thomas

[mikesigman@eart]

But if he's giving a seminar, you know where he'll be (as well as what he's teaching, that there are people there to witness things, etc).

Just to keep the "Attitudes" part of this thread continually alive, let me note that I do workshops sporadically and at whim (i.e., when I feel like it). I don't do any aspect of martial arts for a living.... it's a fun hobby and a lifelong interest. Think how this affects my attitude and interests as compared to someone who is a "teacher" and whose status and livelihood is dependent upon martial arts. So when you see some of the vituperative outbursts in a discussion which suggests that some long-term *professional* martial artist may be missing some basic element, the "attitudes" may play around this factor.

FWIW

Mike

[mikesigman@eart]

Besides, Mike has ALREADY eatablished that he CAN'T personally demonstrate the skills he talks about.
I have already directly asked him "why can't he show me" and he was unable or unwilling to answer.

I didn't mean to leave you with the wrong impression by not anwering to your satisfaction. I CAN demonstrate these things. The reason I didn't reply is because I think you're a whack job and you're stalking me from thread to thread.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[dbotari]

You're more or less saying that a vague terminology covers that bases. What I'm saying is, fine, now tell me exactly what is coordinated, integrated, or organized. I pretty much laid it out already, so if David (or you) disagree with what I defined, then tell me what the real definition of that coordination is and how it works on physical objects.

I like your simple explaination of kokyu outlined earlier. My point was simply that David's comment reflected statements made by (or attributed to) Shioda. I look at that "vague terminology" as a starting point. The specifics in your example are for me the next step in understanding. I like to progress from a "general understanding" to "specifics" - thats the way I incorporate things. Just because I am, exposed to some specifics doesn't mean my general understanding is no longer valid. Does it?

Thanks for your response,

[cxt]

Mike

Dude, can you not even keep your OWN stories stright??

I already asked you--on one of the other many threads you have invaded and torched with your "ki" thing--why you could not personally show the kills you claim.

And you kept reffering me to some other guy.

So a few days ago you lacked the skills--and now you have them???

Makes little sense.

Oh, and when did I ever claim to be "professional teacher????"

And "I" think your an egomanical blowhard that runs from thread to thread as he slowly gets shut down on one thread after another for his inane posits and spacious lines of "reasoning."

The main difference between my opinion and yours is that I can present requested proofs of my statements of fact.

You "simply" can't.



Chris Thomas

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Dan,

I'm in the same boat with you in many ways. I accept my teacher's traditions and training, and enjoy the methodology and form of the yoshinkan style of training. For me, it's my home. So I have to fit the things that I find along the way in my journeys outside of the yoshinkan into that framework.

Personally, I see no contradiction between most of what Mike talks about and the best of what my teacher does. I see some big contradictions between how I represent both what my teacher has taught me and the things Mike speaks of and what I do as well. just more grist for the mill.

I think Shioda Sensei's books give us a very good framework and way of looking at this topic...but when you get down to the specifics of HOW you organize your body to do these things, it gets harder. But I think you have hit a key here...it really is about HOW you organize your body both when recieving power and when issuing power.

Best,
Ron

[dbotari]

Ron,

Yes the devil is always in the details. I like Mike's explainations and can see how they apply in most cases. There is, however, one question that still nags me that perhaps you and/or Mike can assist me with. I understand (conceptually) how kokyu works in a static position (the establishment of a ground path etc), my issue is how to apply that concept when executing a throw where you need to follow through with a step. How does one keep a ground path while moving? Is it a matter of shifting that ground path between the feet (i.e. whichever foot is on the ground establishes the path). So for example when walking your ground path is intantaneously shifting from foot to foot?

I'm afraid all I have are questions at this point. Any insight is always welcome.

Thanks,

[cxt]

Ron

Your mistaken that I take it "personally"--I don't.

The only thing I take "personally" is sloppy logic being passed off as titular fact.

I also object to statements of fact being made without the actual facts being presented.

Both reduced the "debate" Mike wanted to have to "cause I say."

If Mike wishs to argue the various shortcomings of Yoshinkan aikido--as he sees it, by all means lets do so.

But lets keep it to what can be shown and supported shall we?

If not what is the point?

I mean should not SOMEONE be asking if the shortcomings Mike notes in Yoshinkan and thus the conclusions he draws are valid?

Should not someone be looking at the statements and seeing if they are at all supported?

Should not someone take a bit of time and take a hard look at just how such conclusions are put togather?

If not--then this is not a discussion at all--much less the "debate" Mike asked for.

Its just a bunch of guys that feel pretty much the same way sitting around stroking each others ego's and reinforcing each others worldview.

One that seems to have little tolerence for any degree of critical examination or expectations of valid proofs and valid lines of reasoning.

Frankly I had hoped for a bit more.



Chris Thomas

[Ron Tisdale]

If searching out the truth of a method of practice is stroking my ego, then so be it.

If exploring different, and possilby better ways to organize my movement and my body is stroking my ego, then so be it.

Look, you and I are not going to agree on this topic. So I'll just put you on ignore for now, and continue the discussion with interested parties. Then when I'm more or less done with the topic, I'll take you back off ignore.

Best,
Ron

[kimiwane]

The problem is that even though these skills have been around within the higher levels of the Japanese arts for a lot longer that would be apparent on the surface, there are still very few (comparatively) who know how to do these things or even know what they are, in most instances. Which gets to the part in my heading about "attitude". All the normal defensive responses, not to mention the acquired pride,pomp, "status", etc., will come into play. You can see it on this forum. I've seen it on others.

That's a tough question, Mike. It's sort of like "how do you get kuzushi?" isn't it?

Or is it more like "How do I make Dad understand that he's just not hip anymore?"

Well, reading your post carefully, let me just quote you exactly again, "How do you tell some person who has been "doing martial art X" for 20 or 30 years or more that he may be missing a key element?"

Seems that just telling him "You may be missing a key element" should do it, huh? Are you hurt if he doesn't take your word for it.

Or is it possible that, having trained in the matter you discuss for 20 or 30 years, that person may know the subject better than you perceive after reading a comment on a message board? If he can miss something in his intimate studies of 20 or 30 years, maybe you can miss something about him in your 20 or 30 seconds of "considering" what he has to say?

Or maybe he really does understand the subject better than you? You have admitted of a wide but spotty, on-and-off association with Japanese martial arts over many years, obviously with very different teachers of many different levels, each with his own limited understanding of whatever art you mention. Could it be that you never really attained what can be gotten out of 30 years of following a single great teacher, who was an acknowledged master of all the Japanese arts you have studied and could relate them all to one another in proper perspective?

Maybe it's your mistake for thinking you are qualified to tell such a person he's missing something that you, with your piecemeal training and reading of such things as Ueshiba's doka (in Japanese?) have apprehended.

If you simply "don't make waves" and mention these things, you're essentially slighting all the upcoming students and enthusiasts at the schools of all of these people.

Or it could be, that by keeping quiet, you would actually help them by letting them find out for themselves.

I think your real problem with that is that you just don't know how to discuss things with people. You begin with the #1 assumption that you know better than they. So what do you expect to hear?

So your motivation isn't discussion, either. I think you'd just rather argue than be ignored.

If you don't bring it up and you happen to supposedly care for martial arts, you're not doing well by the very thing you profess to care for.

Mike, here's the truth: if you care that much about it, stop reading the doka and go find Akira Tezuka (Shizuoka City, Japan) to show you the truth of aikido. If you want to do good for martial arts, then train and study. Don't presume to set other people straight whom you've never met.

But anyway, I think for the moment, the 3 issues in the header are inextricably bound up and any discussion of ki and kokyu issues rightfully needs to consider "attitude" within the current hierarchies. It makes a good discussion, IMO.

You could make a more interesting discussion of something you understand. Kokyu is not in that category. Why don't you post on 'jin'?

Very best of wishes to you.

[mikesigman@eart]

David, look at your post. There is not one single substantive comment in there. You again only make statements and assertions. Here's your chance.... I laid it out. You dissect it and tell me where the physical understanding is wrong. You've been raised and called.

Mike Sigman

[mikesigman@eart]

I understand (conceptually) how kokyu works in a static position (the establishment of a ground path etc), my issue is how to apply that concept when executing a throw where you need to follow through with a step. How does one keep a ground path while moving? Is it a matter of shifting that ground path between the feet (i.e. whichever foot is on the ground establishes the path). So for example when walking your ground path is intantaneously shifting from foot to foot?

Well, these things are tough over the internet. OK, try this. Stand in a ai-migi-hanmi with a partner in front of you and his right hand is pushing against your belly. Let him push with, say, 10 pounds and try to keep it constant. You may have to slightly inflate or *slightly* stiffen your stomach so it presents a firm surface. Reach around behind his right elbow with your right hand so you can help keep his arm straight. **Let his push go fully into your back leg so that he is pushing against the ground**. Now empathize and think what he is feeling.... if you are letting his push be held by the ground, then he is feeling the solid ground through you. What you want to do is focus on keeping the ground in his hand constantly as you begin to push/move forward with slow, natural steps. Worry only about what he's feeling with his palm. The ground will shift automatically from leg to leg as you move forward if you do that.

If you can do that, you may be able to understand that moving and keeping kokyu on uke as you go forward is the same thing. Hope it helps.

Mike

[kimiwane]

Most of all consider the students of all these "teachers" when you consider the superficial argument about "manner". The idea that any group of "teachers" in various arts rate more concern because they have declared themselves experts than do the students of these people ....

There's your big fallacy, Mike. I mean, other than your "attitude". "These people" did NOT declare themselves experts, did they? Unless you are ranting about self-made-sokes, everyone on these boards, at least, was approved by a teacher who was very hard on him and very critical. You seem never to have experienced that and never to have been approved by any teacher. Oh, except Chen, who said you were the ONLY Westerner who knew how to move for tai chi....

Who is declaring himself an expert, here, Mike?

I've *been* the student of people like this and wasted years of my life, BTW.

Yet, still, somehow, you were better off with them than under your own tutelage.

I'm not sure what you're saying, Alec. Using that sort of logic, a municipality shouldn't bother to supervise the operations of used-car dealerships because it's the will of fate if someone happens to buy a misrepresented product and it's up to the buyer whether he gets a good one or not.

So you the Sheriff o'martial arts schools now? You are a municipality, ELECTED and CHARGED with the responsibility to do this?

It's true. "Inside every revolutionary is a policeman."

You take the cake.

[kimiwane]

If your son wants to learn to be an electronics technician and he goes to a school for 2 years and it turns out that the teacher wasn't really qualified and didn't know the subject, it's sort of fatalistic to say "it's all just part of the grand design".... I say bogus electronics schools are NOT something I would shrug off as "kismet"

But your "chance" mention of electronics schools could be "kismet".

I think your real "niche" in life would be sniffing out and exposing all the fake electronics teachers out there!

Alec was right. You want MA to be better? TRAIN more and criticize less.