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Thread: Bruce Lee's take on Kata

  1. #16
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    The methods of training that Bruce was advocating back in the late 60s is similar to the training methods seen today in MMA.Maybe not as detailed in the grappling dept but the concepts of alive training,conditioning,weight training and contact sparring none the less all have the same flavor.He was willing to train outside the pandora box in different training methods ,something that was unheard of in the traditional arts during that time period.

    You can walk into any bookstore or a video store today and buy 40 different movies or books about him that are sold just for profit in oder to capalize on his fame.Some of the movies about him are not even really him.In most movies along with most books they are not even authorized by him or his family.So if you just got into the arts say 15 years ago and you go looking for material on him...... good luck.You might get a real warped view of his true ideals and beliefs if you don't know what to look for.

    As someone mentioned earlier he was a movie star that became very famous but anyone that personally knew him and this includes movies stars and elite martial art practicioners of that era will tell you that he was a devoted practicioner bordering on a fanatical mindset when it came to personal training and combat effectiveness.

    Also if you don't understand algebra2 because you never did it or you never went outside your sheltered world to expereinced it,how can you know how to evaluate the effectiveness about what he is talking about?YOU HAVE NO MEASURING STICK.


    I like it when a person that's been in the traditional arts for over 25 years in only one single art or very similar arts debunks the bruce lee ideals by simply refferering to them as beggining or novice ideals when in reality that person has maybe never even stepped foot inside a boxing ring with a qualified boxer in order to realize what bruce was talking about when he reffers to rigidness and being not being evasive.Maybe they never tried to train outside of their comfort zone inorder to make a valid opinion on certain issues that bruce represented.

    The truth of the matter is that bruce could not have possibly come up with his fighting ideals without really experiencing it firsthand.That's the only way in most cases that one understands different true principles about combat and contact in a realistic setting.The people that don't appreciate his talent for being so advanced for that time period maybe are just not that advanced today in 2006.

    I see it all the time a guy trains in his comfort style or world with out ever exposing himself to other training methods or different interpretations of fighting,then one day they open themselves up to other ideals for whatever reason and experiments with other method of training,then bingo algebra 2 all the sudden makes sense because without experiencing it,it just did not sink in.You might as well have been speaking cantonese.


    If his ideals about fighting are really that begginer or novice in thought then most everyone that believes this can simply walk into most MMA gyms(that adhere to most of his principals anyway) and put a friendly !!! whooping on all of these begiinning novices that simply don't know anything about fighting because they don't practice kata.
    Last edited by hectokan; 24th February 2006 at 05:45.
    Hector Gomez
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  2. #17
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    I once asked Taki Kimura about the kata / no kata issue, and he said that Bruce Lee was mainly against many Chinese / Wushu forms, which he thought had become too much a dance and not enough practical training. He said the comments were not so much directed at Japanese / Okinawan karate kata or koryu bugei kata.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens
    I once asked Taki Kimura about the kata / no kata issue, and he said that Bruce Lee was mainly against many Chinese / Wushu forms, which he thought had become too much a dance and not enough practical training. He said the comments were not so much directed at Japanese / Okinawan karate kata or koryu bugei kata.

    I actually do feel the same way about the chinese / wushu forms. Its way too flowery and in some sense impractical for my taste. I do have this book and I don't recall much of Bruce Lee's referencing to the traditional arts of Japan and Okinawa.
    Prince Loeffler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Alvelais
    Chris,

    The biographies that I've read on Lee state that he started Wing Chun when in High School. Prior to that, he just picked up here and there from his friends and from fighting in the street. After high school, he went to College in Washington, where he was not under anyone's tutelage.
    I think the premise that he was grounded in Traditional arts is a mistaken one, given his time line.

    Rob
    I agree. Lee had little training in traditional CMA or any TMA.
    If you look at where he got some of his stuff......high kicks= came from his buddy Chuck Norris, weapons/"numchucks" came from Tak Kubota.
    As for his "street fights".....I think maybe he did have some but "urban legend" has made these encounters out to be more than they were.
    [CENTER]Robert Rousselot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens
    I once asked Taki Kimura about the kata / no kata issue, and he said that Bruce Lee was mainly against many Chinese / Wushu forms, which he thought had become too much a dance and not enough practical training. He said the comments were not so much directed at Japanese / Okinawan karate kata or koryu bugei kata.

    Well if he thought some CMA and Wushu was crap he is probably right. Much of it being taught is crap. The way Wushu is taught it is useless as a fighting art.
    When I lived in China many of the teachers I saw didn't concentrate on real world application. Much of what they did was similar to JKA karate in repsect that "kata" was mostly for "show" not "go".
    When my dojo trained in a public facility in Shinjuku there was a Wushu/TCMA class next to us. 20% of their workouts were stretching and 80% was working on flips and jumps of various kinds. Not once did I see anyone hit someone let alone spar or work on application.
    [CENTER]Robert Rousselot

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertRousselot
    I agree. Lee had little training in traditional CMA or any TMA.
    If you look at where he got some of his stuff......high kicks= came from his buddy Chuck Norris...
    May I ask where you got that information? It doesn't match what I know, but of course I've been wrong a time or two or three.

    Unless I am mistaken, he already had incorporated high kicks into his training and teaching while in Seattle, but didn't meet Chuck Norris until much later.

    He himself said he "got some of his stuff" from wherever he found something useful; including karate, boxing, savate, and -- yes -- kung fu.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens
    May I ask where you got that information? It doesn't match what I know, but of course I've been wrong a time or two or three.

    Unless I am mistaken, he already had incorporated high kicks into his training and teaching while in Seattle, but didn't meet Chuck Norris until much later.

    He himself said he "got some of his stuff" from wherever he found something useful; including karate, boxing, savate, and -- yes -- kung fu.

    From Chuck Norris' book.
    [CENTER]Robert Rousselot

    [B][I]Yeah, I’m humble…..I’m just not obsequious--- me [/I][/B]
    [B][I]Human behavior flows from three main sources; desire, emotion, and knowledge --- Plato[/I][/B][/CENTER]

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    I dissagree Lee had a lot more experience in TMA than most traditional martial artist have with fightings arts like boxing,wrestling and kickboxing.Therefore the misconecption here is always the same in that one has to train in a traditional art for say twenty years before the gates of heaven opens up and unleashes the secrets reserved for those faithful blind believers.C'mon if you don't get it after 4 or 5 years of training in any art traditional or not,then that art is simply not good at teaching someone within a logical time frame.



    About Lee learning high kicks from Chuck this cannot be true because chuck worked with bruce in one of his last movies called the "Return of the dragon"which parts were shot in the famous roman coliseum.This must have been around 71 or 72 after bruce had already made several films were he performed high kicks and besides bruce had already been training in the arts for many,many years before he met chuck,very hard to believe that he knew nothing about high kicks.Did he learn something from chuck?I am sure he did just like he learned something from gene lebell and Joe lewis.

    Also when comparing stories with those three greats Lewis,Norris and lebell we have to remember that bruce was a mere 150lbs soaking wet,while all of those guys were first of all champions in their respective sports that also outweighed bruce by many pounds.

    I guess Joe lewis who happens to share more or less the same principals as bruce is a beginner also since he never stayed with his traditional okinawan art long enough to have the secrets revealed to him.......lol yeah right.
    Last edited by hectokan; 24th February 2006 at 14:06.
    Hector Gomez
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    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan
    ...About Lee learning high kicks from Chuck this cannot be true because chuck worked with bruce in one of his last movies called the "Return of the dragon"which parts were shot in the famous roman coliseum.This must have been around 71 or 72 after bruce had already made several films were he performed high kicks...
    But what makes you think that he met Chuck Norris for the first time on the set of that movie? Do you not think it was possible that they met earlier, and that Mr. Norris' appearance in the movie was based on Mr. Lee's acquaintance with him?
    Yours in Budo,
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    Don't know about the kicks. He could have picked those up anywhere. But I had read in BB or something, that Dan Inosanto said that he introduced Lee to Nunchaku.


    Rob

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens
    But what makes you think that he met Chuck Norris for the first time on the set of that movie? Do you not think it was possible that they met earlier, and that Mr. Norris' appearance in the movie was based on Mr. Lee's acquaintance with him?

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Alvelais
    Don't know about the kicks. He could have picked those up anywhere. But I had read in BB or something, that Dan Inosanto said that he introduced Lee to Nunchaku.


    Rob
    Yes,I have read this also.
    Hector Gomez
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens
    But what makes you think that he met Chuck Norris for the first time on the set of that movie? Do you not think it was possible that they met earlier, and that Mr. Norris' appearance in the movie was based on Mr. Lee's acquaintance with him?

    Could be but just remember this....he was the co-star in the tv series "Green hornet during the mid to late sixties.In these episodes Bruce does plenty of scenes that demontrate high kicking abilities.Does anyone remember the longstreet episodes,this was way before he did movies and he also demonstrated high kicks there also.

    Again I am pretty sure that he learned chucks interpretation of certain high kicks that chucked had mastered but then again he was always learning from whoever he could.That is a far stretch from bruce not really knowing anything about kicking high(like a newbie would) and just learning from chuck before the the actual filming of a movie.
    Last edited by hectokan; 24th February 2006 at 15:01.
    Hector Gomez
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    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan
    I dissagree Lee had a lot more experience in TMA than most traditional martial artist have with fightings arts like boxing,wrestling and kickboxing.Therefore the misconecption here is always the same in that one has to train in a traditional art for say twenty years before the gates of heaven opens up and unleashes the secrets reserved for those faithful blind believers.C'mon if you don't get it after 4 or 5 years of training in any art traditional or not,then that art is simply not good at teaching someone within a logical time frame.

    A touch wide of the mark, Hector. The original question was in regard to Lee's opinion on a particular practice that he didn't have a lot of experience with, and with the case of Karate kata, probably zero experience in. Given that Yip Man was regarded as a very traditional teacher in the Chinese tradition and the lore (even within Wing Chun) that things were revealed slowly over long periods of time, ("Shut up and train, it'll be reavealed to you in due time, Cucaracha!") Lee wouldn't have had the time in under a sifu to gain the insight into the training methods and ideologies. Clearly not into Karate kata. I don't think anyone's disputing whether he was a scrapper or not. Simply put, the question is whether Lee had an informed opinion on particular practices, and with regard to this topic, it's not likely that he did.


    I guess Joe lewis who happens to share more or less the same principals as bruce is a beginner also since he never stayed with his traditional okinawan art long enough to have the secrets revealed to him.......lol yeah right.
    Clearly, Lewis didn't stay long enough to learn and undersand the how's or why's of certain practices. That said, he might have decided to discard kata practice for his purposes anyway. I would have. But, the question here isn't whether Kata is an efficient methodology or not. Were I to train someone for the ring, I'd abandon kata practice or severely modify it to something more along the idea of Iai kata where the forms are very short and more obviously deal with actual situations that one might find themselves in, given the setting. IOW, more like practicing combos. But, were I training a well rounded karate instructor or simply preserving a tradition, I'd definitely include kata. One's a long term horizion vs. the shorter term horizon of training someone to fight in particular venues.



    Rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Alvelais
    A touch wide of the mark, Hector. The original question was in regard to Lee's opinion on a particular practice that he didn't have a lot of experience with, and with the case of Karate kata, probably zero experience in. Given that Yip Man was regarded as a very traditional teacher in the Chinese tradition and the lore (even within Wing Chun) that things were revealed slowly over long periods of time, ("Shut up and train, it'll be reavealed to you in due time, Cucaracha!") Lee wouldn't have had the time in under a sifu to gain the insight into the training methods and ideologies. Clearly not into Karate kata. I don't think anyone's disputing whether he was a scrapper or not. Simply put, the question is whether Lee had an informed opinion on particular practices, and with regard to this topic, it's not likely that he did.




    Clearly, Lewis didn't stay long enough to learn and undersand the how's or why's of certain practices. That said, he might have decided to discard kata practice for his purposes anyway. I would have. But, the question here isn't whether Kata is an efficient methodology or not. Were I to train someone for the ring, I'd abandon kata practice or severely modify it to something more along the idea of Iai kata where the forms are very short and more obviously deal with actual situations that one might find themselves in, given the setting. IOW, more like practicing combos. But, were I training a well rounded karate instructor or simply preserving a tradition, I'd definitely include kata. One's a long term horizion vs. the shorter term horizon of training someone to fight in particular venues.



    Rob

    Again why do these topics always drift to the same sport v.s reality street effectiveness debates?Rob If I can remind you a little about bruce original philosophy......and it was not about sport or competition venues at all,as a matter of fact he reffered to them as unrealistic in some cases.Most of his attacks centered on low lying kicks and direct lead punches for street self defense applications.What we need to realize here is that there are a lot of practicioners outside the sport venues that don't consider kata to be a effective training tool.It's not just the sport guys,Why does it always have to be their lack of intelectual knowledge on fighting skills simply because they don't adhere to kata practice?With that said I respect those that do make it part of their training but please the respect should also swing the other way too.



    Rob,by the way I heard from a old friend of yours(fundora)who attended a fumio demura seminar here recently stated to me that demura had also taught Lee some nuchaku moves.

    The plot thickens either bruce did not know anything at all or he just had the right attitude.....the attitude that everyone should have about learning from anyone,anywhere at anytime.

    That is the one thing I repsect most from him.Techniques can change and do evolve but that attitude of having a real empty cup should be something that really get's etched in tradition.
    Last edited by hectokan; 24th February 2006 at 15:53.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan
    Again why do these topics always drift to the same sport v.s reality street effectiveness debates?Rob If I can remind you a little about bruce original philosophy......and it was not about sport or competition venues at all,as a matter of fact he reffered to them as unrealistic in some cases.Most of his attacks centered on low lying kicks and direct lead punches for street self defense applications.What we need to realize here is that there are a lot of practicioners outside the sport venues that don't consider kata to be a effective training tool.It's not just the sport guys,Why does it always have to be their lack of intelectual knowledge on fighting skills simply because they don't adhere to kata practice?With that said I respect those that do make it part of their training but please the respect should also swing the other way too.
    Who's talking about sport vs. reality? Remember, you brought up Joe Lewis. He made a great name for himself, fighting in the ring. I'm just saying that one's training should be tailored to one's purposes. Also, that one's purposes might be multifaceted. If I were training someone to be the next Joe Lewis, in the ring, I'd probably abandon certain "Traditional (TM)" practices. If that's disparaging Lewis, well then I'm right there with him. I teach self-defense in addition to Traditional Karate. Do I teach these students kata? No. Doesn't fit the purposes of these students. But, I do draw from kata for the material that I present in a form tailored to the students purposes. By venue, I consider the ring a particular venue, the parking lot another, different venue, the dojo yet another venue, the full contact venue is a different venue than the wkf point venue. It's simply the scene or setting in which something takes place.

    Getting back to the point, Consider the following hypothetical:

    I don't have much experience at all with the speed bag or the double end bag.

    Imagine a Rob with only 4 years of formal training in traditional karate and no measurable accomplishments other than a few scrapes in the parking lot a Cha cha championship, and some movie work.

    If I were to say that practicing with those apparatus was stupid, or unrealistic, or useless, (take your pick) should this hypothetical Rob's opinion be given any weight on the topic of the speed bag or double end bag?


    I would say, no. Amongst the reasons that I'd say no is because this "Rob" doesn't have sufficient experience with the apparatus to give an informed opinion. Does that make him an idiot? God, I hope not.



    Rob,by the way I heard from a old friend of yours(fundora)who attended a fumio demura seminar here recently stated to me that demura had also taught Lee some nuchaku moves.

    The plot thickens either bruce did not know anything at all or he just had the right attitude.....the attitude that everyone should have about learning from anyone,anywhere at anytime.
    I don't think there was any question that he had an attitude.

    That is the one thing I repsect most from him.Techniques can change and do evolve but that attitude of having a real empty cup should be something that really get's etched in tradition.
    What's this I smell? Oh yes, it's that old dead, beaten horse again. :Laugh:
    IIRC, you and I and the other SFA members agree by and large. I think that the issue between you and I is a minor disagreement about what it means to be "Traditional (TM)" I don't see the notion of changing and evolving technique or open mindedness as being the exclusive province of eclectic MA or MMA. I see it as part of Tradition, too. It's sort of a two tiered thing. At one level is the preservation of the tradition and techniques. At another tier *within Traditional (TM) MA* is the experimentation, evolution and development of new techniques, tactics and strategies, etc. Maybe it's because that's what I see the Traditional instructors, including the founder of my style, Shito Ryu, doing. That to me is part of "Tradition".

    Rob

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