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Thread: Bruce Lee's take on Kata

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Alvelais



    I don't get your point then. Perhaps it's because we don't look at Tradition (TM) the same way. Clearly, you don't know what it is that I do or those in the Traditional karate circles that I circulate in.

    Rob
    Forget it,maybe I just don't know anything about traditional martial arts even thou iv'e been involved with them in one way or another since 1969.oh that's right I left before the secrets were unveiled I forgot, I don't know jack.Traditional karate and it's traditions as it relates to Bruce's own interpretation of them,simply means things or rituals that cannot be discarded within a art,without them ceasing from becoming called something else.

    In other words Rob,if you or your sensei all of the sudden have a vision(for better or for worse)and decide to drop the katas from your shito-ryu itinerary should it still be called shito-ryu?of course not.katas are part of your traditional karate style.Please are views of traditions or traditional anything should not be that far off both you and me have been involved in this for too long not to know what is expected within the traditional karate circles.Why are you acting like we have a different interpretations for traditions or things that classify as traditional arts.


    The traditions and the etiquete(sp) of traditional japanese/okinwan karate include cultural bowing,along with learning the original format of basics within a particular style.This along with katas that are to be done and practice with the intent on finding the full original interpretations(bunkai)as founded by the founders of those katas, regardless of wether they seem practical or not(oh yes I forgot the reverse engineering classes) are all traditional practices that can't and do not change within your style or any other traditional karate style for that matter.

    So where am I wrong ? are you allowed to chop up,dissect and discard certain techniques and traditions and still call it shito-ryu?your right I don't know you or your methods of training but if you classify yourself as a traditional karate practicioner I fully understand what traditions are part of your syllabus.
    Last edited by hectokan; 24th February 2006 at 20:05.
    Hector Gomez
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan
    Forget it,maybe I just don't know anything about traditional martial arts
    You're saying that. I've not said that about you, nor would I. I think where we differ is the degree to which this thing called "traditional" is limited. In my definition, one can preserve all of what was handed down and also experiment, innovate, etc. I gather that you don't think that doing so is "traditional". I think that is this the crux of our "disagreement." Is that a fair assessment?

    I don't know jack.
    I didn't say that, and I sincerely hope that I didn't imply it.

    Traditional karate and it's traditions as it relates to Bruce's own interpretation of them,simply means things or rituals that cannot be discarded within a art,without them ceasing from becoming called something else.
    Essentially, I agree with that. If you discard those things that distinguish a style as a style, it becomes something else, sure. However, I think there's also another facet to it. If say, I were to include (along with all of the other elements of my shito ryu) some Wing Chun Chi Sao drills. It would still be Traditional Shito Ryu, but with some Chi sao drills. After all, Hayashi added a bunch of Ryuei Ryu Kata to the Shito Ryu syllabus, and it's still shito ryu. What I perceive as you saying is that one cannot innovate, experiment, evolve and also keep the traditional syllabus of their style as well (develop a two-track system, as it were). I think that one can. I don't see one as having to discard the bulk of his system in order to still be able to develop and innovate and evolve.


    In other words Rob,if you or your sensei all of the sudden have a vision(for better or for worse)and decide to drop the katas from your shito-ryu itinerary should it still be called shito-ryu?of course not. katas are part of your traditional karate style. Please are views of traditions or traditional anything should not be that far off both you and me have been involved in this for to long to not know what is expected within traditional karate schools. Why are you acting like we have a different interpretations for traditions or things that classify as traditional arts.
    I certainly agree, but as I've articulated here and previously, I think what you and I are quibbling about is the degree of freedom that one has within TMA. I perceive you as saying that adding things that aren't part of the traditional syllabus and methods, without deleteing from the syllabus isn't "Traditional" (TM). Natuarally I can't go along with that, as Mabuni, for example, experimented with different sparring gear, weapons, and invented kata, yet Shito Ryu is considered Traditional.

    The traditions and the etiquete(sp) of traditional japanese/okinwan karate include cultural bowing,along with learning the original format of basics within a particular style.This along with katas that are to be done and practice with the intent on finding the full original interpretations(bunkai)as founded by the founders of those katas, regardless of wether they seem practical or not(oh yes I forgot the reverse engineering classes) are all traditional practices that can't and do not change within your style or any other traditional karate style for that matter.
    While that's true, it's also true that one is encouraged to explore and discover their own applications to kata, for example. So, while there may be an applicaton that is handed down, that may seem quaint and impractical, we're encouraged to devise our own that are more relevant to our abilities and our sensabilities. IOW, find stuff that works for us. Again, I gather that such a practice isn't "Traditional" by your definition. Again, I think that is the crux of our difference, fair enough?
    So where am I wrong are you allowed to chop up,dissect and discard certain traditions and still call it shito-ryu?your right I don't know you or your methods of training but if you classify yourself as a traditional karate practicioner I fully understand what traditions are part of your syllabus.
    I think this has been dealt with, above and previously.

    Rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Alvelais
    I do draw from kata for the material that I present in a form tailored to the students purposes.
    Even a little bob/hook combination is a very small kata. It's "the form" of "what you do."

    Almost all training in anything in life is conducted in a kata style, actually. You go to Burger King, you get the manual, but then they show you, you take the french fries out of the freezer, you open the bag like this, you pour ALL of the french fries into the basket. Watch out for the hot oil. You lower the basket into the oil.....

    As you say, specific form for specific purpose and almost every kind of human training has to be conducted that way. After you learn the flow and the form, then you can ask questions, but as long as you are working at Burger King, you will perform those tasks in those orders and with those movements.

    ...what it means to be "Traditional (TM)" ... I don't see the notion of changing and evolving technique or open mindedness as being the exclusive province of eclectic MA or MMA. I see it as part of Tradition, too. It's sort of a two tiered thing. At one level is the preservation of the tradition and techniques. At another tier *within Traditional (TM) MA* is the experimentation, evolution and development of new techniques, tactics and strategies, etc. Maybe it's because that's what I see the Traditional instructors, including the founder of my style, Shito Ryu, doing. That to me is part of "Tradition".
    That's how Mochizuki sensei did it. He blended aikido, judo, karate, kenjutsu, jujutsu and more into a smooth, well-rounded style where it didn't look out of place for an aikido man to suddenly use karate, then switch to judo, then avoid a sword strike with aikido, etc. He trained directly with Funakoshi, by the way, but his karate was pretty basic--what I called "sledgehammer karate". He taught a very "simple" kata that he said came from Okinawa. He taught front, back, side and round kicks, and seven or eight hand techniques.

    Everything else was "jujutsu"--including aikido, judo, etc. And he experimented and recombined the elements of those arts like a mathematician, constantly reducing the terms of 12 large blackboards filled with equations, down to only 10. It was a truly elegant reduction, nonetheless, and white-gi-black-belt traditional.
    David Orange, Jr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan
    In a traditional karate class setting are you really allowed to take your kimono tops off during class and work on certain aspects of fighting on the ground without a gi top?probably not,then that means you are bounded by tradition.
    Have a good look at the modern yoseikan budo under Hiroo Mochizuki. The time I trained with him, he had everyone take off their gi tops to practice punching, supposedly so that they could fold up the gi and use it as a punching target, but, in fact, I think, so that everyone would have to show their upper body development or lack thereof. Pretty good psychological tool if someone has been getting flabby.

    And I think he has his people do some freestyle wrestling without gi tops. I know Edgar Kruyning, of the Netherlands does it. See his books, Dynamic Budo, Parts I and II.

    Same goes for training one day with boxing gloves on during traditional shito-ryu class....."probably not allowed"..... why? because it's not tradition,so yes you are open to evolution as long as it stays within your specific tradition code.
    Minoru Mochizuki used to have us do that. And I'm pretty sure Hiroo sensei has his people do it.

    Hiroo must be 70 or older now, but the times I've seen him, he moved like Bruce wanted to.

    Best wishes.
    David Orange, Jr.

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    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan
    I agree with almost everything you say about the older traditions of teaching being different from what they are today.The irony here is that if bruce's logic was flawed,then most of yip man students that stayed with him and trained with him for many years before and after bruce left must have become better practicioners. how would you prove that?
    First, I think Bruce really is responsible for a lot of the changed attitudes among teachers, even world wide. After him, every teacher had to expect students to ask things they never would have asked before.

    But does that make him right? I think dying at 32 is not a good indicator for that. And I am convinced that he died young because of how he lived. No need to tell me that's just my opinion, but I've had over 30 years to consider it.

    And I've also been considering his famous fight with Man Jack Wong, a very traditional man, who had learned several traditional forms in depth for several years before fighting Bruce.

    Wong was back at work the next day, waiting tables, while Bruce began dismantling his entire art and starting over. Something happened there. A few short years later, Bruce died. Wong still does kung fu. The traditional kind.

    Best wishes and have a nice weekend.
    David Orange, Jr.

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    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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    Rob,

    I guess a apology is in order,first for assuming that eveyone that trains in traditional karate is bounded by certain traditions that probably manifest itself within certain Japanese circles.I do realize that certain okinawan styles never have and never will be bounded by such traditions,as those found within certain Japanese karate schools.It's just that the allowance for that change or tolerance in experimintation is not enough for me personaly(IMO) and that's fine too each his own.I respect you,your style and your methods of training.

    IT'S ALL GOOD
    Hector Gomez
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane

    And I've also been considering his famous fight with Man Jack Wong, a very traditional man, who had learned several traditional forms in depth for several years before fighting Bruce.
    YES THERE IS A LOT SIDES TO THIS STORY,DEPENDS ON WHICH SIDE OF THE FENCE YOU SIT ON.
    Hector Gomez
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    Hector,

    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan
    Rob,

    I guess a apology is in order,
    None required, as far as I'm concerned. It was a cordial discussion. How about a nice tall cerveza and enchiladas, should we ever meet in person?
    I respect you,your style and your methods of training.

    IT'S ALL GOOD
    Ditto! :-D

    Rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Alvelais
    Hector,



    None required, as far as I'm concerned. It was a cordial discussion. How about a nice tall cerveza and enchiladas, should we ever meet in person?

    Rob
    I second that Dos-equis,corona or tecate is fine with me!
    Hector Gomez
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    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan
    YES THERE IS A LOT SIDES TO THIS STORY,DEPENDS ON WHICH SIDE OF THE FENCE YOU SIT ON.
    That is true. Bruce died about the time I began karate training, in June, 1972. And when I read "Bruce Lee: the man only I knew", I swallowed the Lee side of it whole hog. But later, when I read the other side, it was like another whole side of the story appeared. So many aspects of Lee's story fall down when you know Man Jack Wong was at work the next day, waiting tables. And Bruce's saying he was winded...after three minutes. Makes more sense that it went more like 20 minutes.

    And the kicker, for me, is the fact that Wong went on doing exactly what he had been doing all along.

    Bruce felt the crushing necessity to change what he had been doing. So, obviously, he must have been unhappy with the result, no matter what he said.

    I got a lot of inspiration for Bruce, but I don't much like him as a role model or as a martial arts model.

    Just my opinion.
    David Orange, Jr.

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    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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    Default Wushu/Sanda

    David,

    It may have changed but when I was in China every one of the Sanda practitioners I met worshipped Bruce Lee and attempted to emulate (oh the irony) the lead leg side kick/jun fan pendulum footwork etc. And they could make it work pretty well. It's completely consistent with the Chinese folk culture practice of venerating accomplished heroes. And yes I can get cites for this--Prof. David Johnson has written a number of works detailing the process.

    The Chinese god of war, Guan Di (or Guan Yu) was a historical person famed for his bravery and sense of justice. Over time, the masses of people venerating him led to his inclusion in the pantheon of Chinese gods.

    I agree with you that how he trained and lived probably killed him. He was deifinitely over training (which led to the weight loss, before he died he was having a hard time keeping down food) and he worked hard at keeping his body fat down to a minimum. There are a lot of downsides to this, including increased susceptibility to dehydration as well as immune problems. I have experienced this as well when I overtrained. I think he was using diuretics and steroids as well.

    I haven't met Wong , but I trained with his student Brent Hamby for a few months. Great guy, great instructor. So I'll infer from that experience that Wong is probably a pretty decent guy himself. Let me be clear. I don't worship Lee but definitely, been influenced by him . . . as much in a things-not-to-do as much as things-to do.

    Rob and Hector,
    Did you get a chance to read the Hawkins Chung article? At the risk of thread drift, it kind of (in my opinion...) ties into the ki/kokyu discussion that has been raging for the last few weeks.
    Tim Fong

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens
    But what makes you think that he met Chuck Norris for the first time on the set of that movie? Do you not think it was possible that they met earlier, and that Mr. Norris' appearance in the movie was based on Mr. Lee's acquaintance with him?
    Read Chuck's book, it explains how th4ey met years before making a movie together.
    [CENTER]Robert Rousselot

    [B][I]Yeah, I’m humble…..I’m just not obsequious--- me [/I][/B]
    [B][I]Human behavior flows from three main sources; desire, emotion, and knowledge --- Plato[/I][/B][/CENTER]

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    Quote Originally Posted by edg176
    David,

    It may have changed but when I was in China every one of the Sanda practitioners I met worshipped Bruce Lee and attempted to emulate (oh the irony) the lead leg side kick/jun fan pendulum footwork etc.
    Yeah, when Ming told me they basically mimicked Bruce Lee, I was flabbergasted. And then add what Jackie Chan said. And no question, when I was eight or nine years old, I went around kicking head high, everywhere I went, because of watching Bruce Lee on The Green Hornet. No question, he was an exciting personality and magnetic on screen.

    I agree with you that how he trained and lived probably killed him. He was deifinitely over training (which led to the weight loss, before he died he was having a hard time keeping down food) and he worked hard at keeping his body fat down to a minimum.
    Did you read the article, supposedly by the attending physician at both his "body of an 18 year old" breakdown incident and the day he died?

    In case that's a little vague, you know, he had a passing out incident a few weeks before he died. People said he had convulsions, but when the doctor examined him, he told him he had "the body of an 18 year old". Which might not have been a compliment for a 32 year old man. And the same doctor treated him the day he died.

    This doctor wrote that Bruce was eating chunks of raw Nepalese (I think) hashish. He said it helped him slow down a little and helped his creativity. The doctor said it also gave him hashish toxicity and caused his brain to swell.

    And that is backed up by the news stories at that time that stated that "cannabis leaf" was found in Lee's stomach at the autopsy.

    I haven't met Wong , but I trained with his student Brent Hamby for a few months. Great guy, great instructor. So I'll infer from that experience that Wong is probably a pretty decent guy himself.
    Did you get a chance to read the Hawkins Chung article? At the risk of thread drift, it kind of (in my opinion...) ties into the ki/kokyu discussion that has been raging for the last few weeks.
    I had that open, myself, but had to run to a meeting. I will read that.

    Thanks.

    Best wishes.
    David Orange, Jr.

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    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
    Lao Tzu

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimiwane
    That is true. Bruce died about the time I began karate training, in June, 1972. And when I read "Bruce Lee: the man only I knew", I swallowed the Lee side of it whole hog. But later, when I read the other side, it was like another whole side of the story appeared. So many aspects of Lee's story fall down when you know Man Jack Wong was at work the next day, waiting tables. And Bruce's saying he was winded...after three minutes. Makes more sense that it went more like 20 minutes.

    And the kicker, for me, is the fact that Wong went on doing exactly what he had been doing all along.

    Bruce felt the crushing necessity to change what he had been doing. So, obviously, he must have been unhappy with the result, no matter what he said.

    I got a lot of inspiration for Bruce, but I don't much like him as a role model or as a martial arts model.

    Just my opinion.
    So by all accounts that I have read the fight ended in a draw,big deal the other guy had a lot more time in training from what I hear. pretty good for a guy that is just supposedly a beginner.So Bruce realized how much more conditioning he really needed and how imortant stamina meant in a fight.This was years before bruce died and years before bruce reached a higher education in HIS own personalized system.As a matter of fact this was when he first opened up his first school and decided to teach the non-chineese practicioners and the challenge came from the traditional chinese comunity that wanted him to teach only to chineese students.sorry it smells just like racism for that I side with bruce on this one.I doubt the result would have been the same a couple of years later when his evolution as a fighter was more refined.


    BOY AM I BROWNOSING ON BRUCE BANDWAGON OR WHAT?
    Hector Gomez
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    Hector,

    That aspect of the tale is utter crap. Wong Jack Man is one of my instructors. I studied Hsing-I and Tai Chi with him. Wong invited me to his daughters wedding and was genuinely touched that I came. Heck, it was I who was honored to have been invited. But, Wong acted as though it was I who was paying him a great honor. He's a genuinely nice fellow although painfully shy. My seniors were from all ethnic backgrounds, Hispanic , black, caucasian, etc. One of Wong's students close to the time of the fight was Peter Ralston, a caucasian. It's not my experience that Wong is racist.
    Unjustly accusing this poor man of racism is simply contemptable and unforgiveable. No, I'm not saying that you're accusing Wong of racism, but for those in Bruce's camp to promulgate that myth at the expense of a decent, honorable man is disgusting.

    Rob



    Quote Originally Posted by hectokan
    As a matter of fact this was when he first opened up his first school and decided to teach the non-chineese practicioners and the challenge came from the traditional chinese comunity that wanted him to teach only to chineese students.sorry it smells just like racism for that I side with bruce on this one.i doubtr the result would have been the same a couple of years later when the evolution was more refined.

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