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Thread: SMR Succession

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    Default SMR Succession

    Hi All,

    Does anybody know why Shimizu Sensei the headmaster of the Shindo Muso Ryu didn’t appoint a successor? I am interested in the reasons why 25 generations of succession ended.

    If this has been dealt with I another thread please point me in the right direction.

    This may not be considered a subject to be discussed outside the ryu.

    If not then the SMR situation does raise some other questions.

    Does the Shindo Muso Ryu still exist without a Headmaster?

    Could the 26th headmaster be “appointed” (elected, created, assumed) by any other means than by the previous headmaster? are there any previous incidents in other ryu? How relevant would they be?

    If one of Shimizu Sensei’s senior students were to create his own ryu, (insert menkyo kaiden holder)-ha Shindo Muso Ryu, would this be recognised as koryu?

    Cheers
    Julian Bever

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    E-Budo forum rules require signing all posts with your real name.

    For a discussion of this topic please see this thread:
    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...ghlight=shihan



    Eric
    Eric Montes

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    Hi Eric,

    Thanks for the thread link.

    My signature shows my full name.

    Thanks again.
    Julian Bever

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    My apologies Julian.
    I was in a hurry and didn't scroll down far enough when I was composing the reply.

    Hope you found the info useful.

    e
    Eric Montes

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    Very quick answer. Technically, Shimizu Sensei was the "head shihan" or senior teacher of Shinto Muso-ryu. He was not headmaster, though his position was similar and outsiders may well have referred to him as such. Shinto Muso-ryu has been handed down in menkyo lines, as opposed to having a headmastership, per se, as far as I know.

    It's just that today, instead of there being 3 dojos and/or lines down in Kyushu, there are lines/dojo all over the world.

    Hope this helps!

    Diane Skoss

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    Thank you Diane for the info.

    Is SMR a unique koryu in this simultaneous transmission by menkyo lines with one "head shihan"? Do you know how far back this approach reaches in the ryu's history?

    If it is, what is it about SMR which allows for this approach?

    Cheers
    Julian Bever

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMB
    Is SMR a unique koryu in this simultaneous transmission by menkyo lines with one "head shihan"? Do you know how far back this approach reaches in the ryu's history?

    If it is, what is it about SMR which allows for this approach?
    How would you say it is 'unique'?

    It was my understanding that the 'menkyo kaiden' meant that a student had received 'full transmission'. In other words, they had received (and had shown they understood) the entire curriculum of the art, often mental as well as physical. These license holders could then legitimately go out and teach independent of the main school. In some cases, lines diverged enough, or rivalries erupted, so that a new school would be formed.

    There is an interesting article by William Bodiford posted over on the Koryu Forum Message Archive section of the "Koryu: History and Tradition" sub-forum (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4521). It mentions that the modern 'soke' idea seems to be pretty recent (i.e. Meiji era), as far as budo goes.


    -Joshua B.
    Joshua Badgley
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    Hi Joshua,

    It is not the idea of menkyo kaiden holders teaching contemporaneously in different locations which I find surprising. It is the idea that there might be separate lineages of menkyo kaiden holders (ie lineage B: "b3" student of "b2" student of "b1", and lineage C: "c3" student of "c2" student of "c1") which are located in different towns which at any point in time recognise the most senior menkyo kaiden holder (from either dojo) as "head" of SMR. In this example there may not have been a shared teacher since "b1" studied with "c1" under shared teacher "a" prior to achieving menkyo kaiden, moving and starting his own dojo. Also the transmission of seniority in the above may have gone "a" succeeded by "c1"-"b1"-"b2"-"c2"-to the present with "c3" as most senior and "b3" as potential successor.

    I'm sure the above reads like a car crash.

    The bit which surprises me is (using the "challenged" example above) why didn't "a1" establish his own style, or, once the lineages had split, why didn't "a2" or "a3" (the inheritors of "a1") give their lineage a different name rather than continuing as SMR.

    Or am I trying to simplify things grossly?

    Cheers
    Julian Bever

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    Let me make it simple. Grab a copy of the Bugei Ryuha Dai Jiten. Open at random. Look at the lineage of the art on the page you find. More often than not, it looks like a tree rather than a line. This idea of one-headmaster giving one line of succession is actually rather new (see Wm. Bodiford's article on Soke). Even some of the most prominent schools that allegedly follow the soke/headmaster system have instituted it relatively recently, and have written their history to make it as if it had always been so. The "rule" used to be - menkyo kaiden was a "drivers" license. You were qualified to go out on the road, and you were on your own. Shihan or "dai" had their own dojos and their own lines. The soke idea is a combination of an administrative structure and, in some cases, a means of political control within the ryu. Soke, as the name implies, indicates that the school is maintained within the family. But, if they taught more than family members, they still had mechanisms to certify outsiders. History bears out that schools that tried to keep a single line got isolated and often insignificant in the larger stage (TSKSR or Maniwa Nen-ryu being two examples).

    Best

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    My head starts to hurt and my eyes cross every time I see someone talking about "lines" and soke. Life just isn't as simple as we'd like it to be and there just aren't such clean definitions to make.

    Most of the discussions in the koryu forums seem to be about lineage... although perhaps that's because there really isn't much else to talk about except whether or not we can shoehorn everything into simple definitions.

    Why wouldn't the various Menkyo Kaiden start their own "lines" or rename their art something else?

    Why would they?

    These guys know each other, the world isn't all that big. Some of them doubtless like others more or less well but they do talk to each other, they don't live on different planets.

    That most of them are in the ZNKR doubtless helps get them all in the same room together, and gives them an excuse to talk with each other.

    Kim Taylor.

    Author of bags of books and videos and promoter of seminars that you-all have to look up yourselves. ;-)

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    This is more directed at Mr Amdur, (though I appreciate as always Unka Kims pragmatic view ;-)

    If I'm reading your response right then many of the arts diverged and became -ha arts, with a particular flavor that could be traced back if you followed the lineage.

    In which case, this could be happening now, for example with Daito ryu (hey, and I'm no expert!!! before y'all slay me ;-) if DR is a koryu, and all the indirect lines are -ha (and i ain't saying which!) then some of those -ha vary from the direct line, and therefore are 'new', surely that doesn't make them koryu per se then? And yet, you wouldn't class it as gendai either?

    The reason I ask is that the 'koryu' mantle appears so black and white, and yet it seems that a koryu could be formed tomorrow by a 'full transmission' holder, is koryu then a defined by kata (combative techiniques pertinent to dealing with medieval japanese combat), psychology (mindset with regard to dealing with someone whose sole intention was to kill you as opposed to getting some money for their next high), or methodology (sensei as uke to enable efficient transfer of the principles)

    oh, in case it looks like a dumb question, it probably is ;-) i have no clue....
    Jim Boone

    Flick Lives!

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    I believe you are simplifying it a little too much.

    Koryu is an old lineage. If your lineage is there, and you are still teaching that style, then it is koryu. If two menkyo kaiden holders vary on their interpretation of something. E.g. Should nukitsuke be across the eyes, throat, or chest? Should the tanjo be held in the hand or tapped along the floor? Do you strike the hand, and have your motodachi stop before they get hit, or do you strike the weapon, knowing that in a fight you would strike the hands?

    Different '-ha' will have different interpretations, but (in my experience) they won't be adding new kata* to the curriculum, or a new weapon, etc. Usually, it seems that different lines will recognize the validity of each other, although they may not agree on the interpretation of the other.

    If it gets really bad, you do get political splits. I believe that there has, at least in the past, been some rivalry between Owari Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Edo Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (I don't know if they denied the validity of the other line at any point).


    -Joshua B.

    *Although some people may revive old kata that have been lost or forgotten.
    Joshua Badgley
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    これやこの行くも帰るもわかれつつ
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    Unusual, but they might add new kata or weapons to the curriculum. Some things that outsiders think are very old, are not necessarily so.

    As for DR, no thanks regarding the never-ending koryu/gendai discussion. Koryu is an adjective, anyway. There used to be just "ryu." Sort of like college fraternities - have you had a charter since 1848? Are you connected to the headquarters? Do you still do the hazing rituals in time hallowed fashion or have you made some changes, thanks to intervention from the dean of student affairs? This stuff really isn't that hard.

    Best

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    Quote Originally Posted by J. L. Badgley
    ...I believe that there has, at least in the past, been some rivalry between Owari Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Edo Yagyu Shinkage Ryu
    Yes; to the extent that trying to kill each other on the field of battle might be considered "some rivalry."
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    As for DR, no thanks regarding the never-ending koryu/gendai discussion. posted by Ellis

    What, you got a problem, Ellis??



    Best,
    Arman Partamian

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