SMR Succession

[bert sijben]

Shimuzu sensei, did not appoint a headmaster because it needs two people two practice JoDO. The beautiful point in jodo is when there is rei together. It is easy to hold tachi en jo when you are alone.But for most of the time your partner will not be perfect he will get excited when you hit his suigetsu a little bit hard or to soft.Just look to yourself and at any point in life wether you walk the street or practice jodo you keep your respect for others and this needs practice a lot.There is one important point waza or kata must be the same. timing (Ma) and distance (Maai) allows us to personalize our kata, but in this matter there should be rei. If you carry any form of judgement to your partner old young quick or slow you will learn something different.Grading or Dan in itself means nothing. My sensei 8dan kyoshin has thougt me this language and I am very enjoying myself.

Best regards Bert Sijben

[Brian Owens]

Shimuzu sensei, did not appoint a headmaster because it needs two people two practice JoDO....

But Jodo (and many other arts) has always required two people. And yet there were headmasters in the past.

[bert sijben]

Dear Brian,

Thank you for your comment, but why you disagree with shimuzu sensei. He didn t appoint a headmaster for he had his reasons. I am sure we are in the same situation were we can not see his position because i am not headmaster and never have the aspiration to, are you a headmaster?

[Brian Owens]

...why you disagree with shimuzu sensei.

I didn't disagree with Shimizu Sensei.

I only said that your explaination -- that you can't have a headmaster in an art that requires paired practice -- didn't make sense to me.

[bert sijben]

Dear Brian

Since you are a moderator, i am a lttle bit careful. The history tells us that shimuzu sensei did not appoint a headmaster. I explain nothing I just want to say something, but there seems some resistance on your part and that maybe also maybe an explanation.

In Jodo world in japan i can not listen shimuzu sensei talk to often but we as foreigners to Japan take very free this discussion. I think for myself if shimuzu sensei would engage me with a tachi I will do my best, if some ikkyu person engage me I also do my best.

Greetings Bert Sijben

[Brian Owens]

...The history tells us that shimuzu sensei did not appoint a headmaster. I explain nothing I just want to say something...

Well, maybe there is some confusion on my part

When you wrote, "Shimuzu sensei, did not appoint a headmaster because it needs two people two practice JoDO" I thought you were saying that the two-man thing was his reason; and that did not make sense to me.

But if you are now saying that he had a good reason, even if we don't know what that reason is, I agree. I'm sure his reason made sense to him at the time.

...Since you are a moderator, i am a lttle bit careful....

Please; don't let the fact that I'm a moderator stop you from speaking your mind. Everyone here has a viewpoint, and it's good to be exposed to different views. I like to get into discussions on a variety of topics, and I only let my moderator status come into play if someone violates a rule or if something needs to be handled in the fora that I moderate (this isn't one of them).

I've only been a moderator for a short time. You should see some of the arguments...I mean, discussions...I used to have with the "ninja masters" and the 20 year old "soke" guys. It's all in good fun.

Thanks for joining the discussion.

[bert sijben]

Thank you Brian

I have a question, why is there on e-budo no topic on shodo. It seems that the brush and the sword have a very nice conection. Since I am a shodo master I want to send you a byobu from my hand maybe we can have some talk about that.

Best regards Bert Sijben

[Brian Owens]

...I have a question, why is there on e-budo no topic on shodo. It seems that the brush and the sword have a very nice conection.

I think Shodo would be an excellent topic for discussion. We have a sub-forum devoted to the game of Go, and one on food; maybe one on Shodo would do well, too.

If you'd like to start a Shodo discussion, start a "New Topic" in the Japanese Culture: History and Traditions forum. I think you'll get lots of responses. It's a great idea.

[Diane Skoss]

Just a quick clarification. Shimizu Sensei could not appoint a headmaster because he was not the headmaster. It wasn't a matter of choice. Shinto Muso-ryu doesn't have a headmaster. Otofuji Sensei was the next senior shihan and he was acknowledged as such by most practitioners. Since Otofuji Sensei's death it has been unclear exactly who the seniormost menkyo kaiden is, given the two primary lines, one in Kyusho and one in Kanto.

Cheers!

Diane Skoss

[Fred27]

Just a quick clarification. Shimizu Sensei could not appoint a headmaster because he was not the headmaster. It wasn't a matter of choice. Shinto Muso-ryu doesn't have a headmaster. Otofuji Sensei was the next senior shihan and he was acknowledged as such by most practitioners. Since Otofuji Sensei's death it has been unclear exactly who the seniormost menkyo kaiden is, given the two primary lines, one in Kyusho and one in Kanto.

Cheers!

Diane Skoss

Hello..love yer book "Koryu bujutsu", I picked it up after a recommendation by my sensei.

I understand that Shimizu couldn't appoint a new headmaster if he never was one, but why didn't Shiriashi Hanjiro appoint a successor? Was there philosophical, practical [reasons] or did he simply pass away before he could make his choice? Or was it an early preview of what you said above: That the existance of two main-lines, Kyusho and Tokyo, made it difficult to come to an agreement?

[Eric Montes]

Shimizu Sensei could not appoint a headmaster because he was not the headmaster

Fred,
Same thing goes.

Shiraishi Hanjiro Sensei could not appoint a headmaster because he was not the headmaster. Several divergent lines merged, but the nature of SMR transmission did not change.
Eric

[musa]

Just a quick clarification. Shimizu Sensei could not appoint a headmaster because he was not the headmaster. It wasn't a matter of choice. Shinto Muso-ryu doesn't have a headmaster. Otofuji Sensei was the next senior shihan and he was acknowledged as such by most practitioners. Since Otofuji Sensei's death it has been unclear exactly who the seniormost menkyo kaiden is, given the two primary lines, one in Kyusho and one in Kanto.

Cheers!

Diane Skoss

Diane,

Thanks for that but could you please provide a reference for this information? Reason being is that it seems to go against the norm as far as Shimizu's position within the lineage of Shindo Muso Ryu

Musa Williams

[Ellis Amdur]

The vast majority of ryu never had "headmasters." Any number of shihan could be appointed within a single ryu who had full authority to pass down a lineage themselves. They were referred to as "dai" - (18th dai menkyo kaiden, or 16th dai shihan, etc.). Soke - familial descent - was certainly used by some schools - but even that did not confine the school to a "headmaster." Take Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. Not only is there a familial line through the Yagyu family, but there are other lines through various shihan. In modern times, many ryu have an individual who claims to be "soke," even though they have no blood relationship to the generation before - this is more political than anything else. Back in the day, a shihan was certified and got employed somewhere - opening up a dojo in a han - or, opening up a machi-dojo (town school) which he might have to defend from challenges. There was, therefore, a rough kind of quality control, based on both power and/or economics. These days, ryu are really just clubs - they belong to umbrella organizations, that certify who is legit, and it makes political sense to claim to be the "headmaster." Some schools genuinely have passed down the lineage that way, but truthfully, the majority never did. Embarassingly enough, there have been several court cases involving ryu in which several people each claimed to be headmaster - the courts have decided, in each case, that no headmaster ever existed (and implicitly, the plaintiffs were shaming their ancestors). And if you want a textual source, open the Bugei Ryu-ha Dai Jiten. Look at the lineage charts - they resemble spider webs rather than straight lines, more often than not.

And, as for the post above, partner practice has nothing to do with authority. In fact, the uketachi should be (traditionally speaking) always the senior. For example my instructor in Toda-ha Buko-ryu never once took the uketachi side until her teacher was felled by a stroke. She had to "reconstruct" what to do on uketachi's side when the teaching authority fell to her.

Best

[Andy Watson]

Hi Bert

Where do you practise in Fukuoka and who is your sensei?

I love that part of the country especially the hot spring resorts around Ibusuki (if that's the right way to spell it).

Regards

[Fred27]

And if you want a textual source, open the Bugei Ryu-ha Dai Jiten. Look at the lineage charts - they resemble spider webs rather than straight lines, more often than not.

Show me where to pick up an english translated version and you got a deal