British-jiujitsu training history

[bu-kusa]

Does anyone here know of the training connections between the early ‘’ European - jiujitsu pioneers’’ such as E.W. Barton-Wright et al and the (british-jujitsu) of ‘’Soke’’ Kevin Pell Richard Morris and Robert Clarke. None of the official websites seem to give out this information, and many seem to give the impression that they are traditional Japanese arts.
Also at what point did it become common place to amalgamate Karate/Kobudo and Aikido techniques into this ‘system’ of juijitsu.

Many thanks in advance for your replys.

[Tony Wolf]

Barton-Wright's Bartitsu was only "officially" taught between 1899-1903, and the system had essentially died out altogether by 1920.

There were many different jujitsu ryu introduced to England during the early decades of the 1900s, by men like Yukio Tani, Sadekazu Uyenishi, Taro Miyake, Gunji Koizumi, et al, but the evolution of decades of intensive cross-fertilisation between these styles, sport judo, WW1 and 2 hand to hand combat, etc. makes tracing the exact relationships and lineages more than a bit tricky.

I don't know anything about Pell, Morris or Clarke or their styles, so I can't help you there - sorry.

Tony

[MikeWilliams]

Does anyone here know of the training connections between the early ‘’ European - jiujitsu pioneers’’ such as E.W. Barton-Wright et al and the (british-jujitsu) of ‘’Soke’’ Kevin Pell Richard Morris and Robert Clarke. None of the official websites seem to give out this information, and many seem to give the impression that they are traditional Japanese arts.
Also at what point did it become common place to amalgamate Karate/Kobudo and Aikido techniques into this ‘system’ of juijitsu.

There are some old threads on this, if you do a search on any of the above names.

Clarke and (I think) Morris were students of James Blundell. After that, the trail runs out. Blundell's own training history is vague to say the least (claims of being taught in secret by a Chinese shopkeeper in Singapore or Indonesia...). I believe he had rank in Judo - and the WJJF/BJJA style is obviously heavily influenced by Judo. I have heard that Blundell (and Clarke too) had some Lancashire wrestling training, and there are some hints of that in the syllabus. It is also possible that Blundell had exposure to some WWII combatives.

The only other associations that I know of are with Rod Sacharnoski's Juko-Kai in the 1980s (I believe this was a political collaboration, rather than a technical one, as the syllabus was already formed by then). This affiliation ended badly to say the least.

There also seem to have been some links with Hontai Yoshin Ryu (another bad ending, and I don't know whether Clarke actually trained in the style or not).

Beyond that, nobody is telling. I suspect the various people who have been involved in the WJJF/BJJA hierarchies over the years threw elements from their own training backgrounds into the pot, and that's how the style developed beyond basic "dirty judo".

There's no real link back to Bartitsu, unfortunately. For sentimental/patriotic reasons, I think that would have been very cool! For the same reason (and given the sketchy history/lineage), I think it would have been better if the WJJF/BJJA from the outset emphasised the home-grown heritage rather then leaving people to believe it is a Japanese martial art.

In fairness, the WJJF (at least nowadays) makes no claims of lineage, uses English for technique names, and is relatively relaxed about etiquette and ritual, and the teaching methods are western (as opposed to "neo-confuscian"). I still train in it occasionally. I still enjoy it and think it has good things to offer, despite my exposure to other styles.

All the weapons work ("kobudo") in the dan-grade syllabus seems very dodgy, however.

[GCP]

Not quite what you are after, but I have a copy of an article about Terry Parker from 'Fighters'. He was WJJF for a long time I beleive, and so probably contributed to their sylabus. Apparantly he learnt some 'martial arts' in Korea and some jujutsu in Japan (possibly1953, for 12 weeks) from an instructor, but they did not exchange names. In England he studied further with Dr Vernon Bell, to third dan.

[MikeWilliams]

I'd like to see that article, if you happen to have a scanned copy of it.

[bu-kusa]

I too would like to see that article, (again if you have a transcript or a scan of it) im trying to get some information together for some friends who have been training in 'modern british jiujitsu' for a few years and are unsure of what they are really practising. Again many thanks for your time!

[BomberH]

Does anyone here know of the training connections between the early ‘’ European - jiujitsu pioneers’’ such as E.W. Barton-Wright et al and the (british-jujitsu) of ‘’Soke’’ Kevin Pell Richard Morris and Robert Clarke. None of the official websites seem to give out this information, and many seem to give the impression that they are traditional Japanese arts.
Also at what point did it become common place to amalgamate Karate/Kobudo and Aikido techniques into this ‘system’ of juijitsu.

Many thanks in advance for your replys.

Soke Kevin Pell and his Ishin Group are discussed in the following EBudo thread.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31881

[Tony Wolf]

I don't know if this is relevant, but the original British Jujitsu Society was formed abck in the early years of the 1900s by four students of Yukio Tani and Sadakazu Uyenishi - namely, Percy Longhurst, W. Bruce Sutherland, Percy Bickerdike and William Garrud. They produced a series of training booklets and seem to have gone their own way when Koizumi set up the Budokwai.

Tony

[GCP]

I'd like to see that article, if you happen to have a scanned copy of it.

I'll get it scanned when I have some time, and get back to those who want a copy.

[Steve Delaney]

There also seem to have been some links with Hontai Yoshin Ryu (another bad ending, and I don't know whether Clarke actually trained in the style or not).

Mike,

Yeah he had Inoue over for some seminars and everything was going swimmingly until Clarke decided to fabricate dan grade documents related to the ryuha and forge Inoue sensei's hanko & signature.

There's even an old handbook with a foreword and Inoue sensei's hanko attached , except the kanji was backwards!!! The book showed Clarke copying several iaijutsu techniques from Otake Risuke's book, The Deity & The Sword. Along with the mish-mash in the book, there was kamajutsu & tonfajutsu. Clarke was expelled sometime after that publication.

[MikeWilliams]

Cheers Steve, that confirms what I have been told.

I know when the juko-kai affiliation collapsed and Rod Sacharnoski tried to sue Clarke, he cited the fraudulent Hontai Yoshin Ryu claims - surely one of the biggest pot-calling-kettle episodes in MA history. Somewhere in the e-budo archives there are some newspaper articles relating to this, I believe.

[bu-kusa]

So in essence, ‘British jiu jitsu’ seems to be based upon a smattering of traditional jujutsu, plus judo, plus various Karate and Aikido like techniques? Is this correct?

Is anyone here a member of the WJJF etc, if so what is the background of the art that is taught to students

I recently been talking to a dan level grade in the WJJF under a very good teacher and as far as he knows what he does is traditional Ju-Jutsu, the only other forms he knows of is modern styles like BJJ.
Another time I was talking to a local (ands seemed to be very good) jikishin jiujitsu instructor with many years experience. And it was only when I mentioned I have some experience with Koryu forms of Ju-Jutsu that he admitted the what he did wasn’t a traditional art, whilst all the advertising for the club promoted it as being the art of the samurai etc.

[Tony Wolf]

One note re. the various Japanese styles and techniques that went into the British jiujitsu mix; as early as 1907, with the combined influences of Barton-Wright, Uyenishi, Tani, Miyake and Koizumi, British jiujitsuka had already been exposed to elements of Tenshin-Shinyo Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, Fusen-Ryu, Kodokan Judo and Yoshin-Ryu jiujitsu.

Individuals very likely took to creating their own variations of the basics. Barton-Wright certainly did that by mixing Japanese, French and English fighting styles into Bartitsu. William Garrud promoted a method of using jiujitsu against English boxing, and Percy Longhurst mixed his jiujitsu in with various styles of British wrestling. Tani and Uyenishi studied Swiss "all in" wrestling at the Bartitsu Club and fought wrestlers from all over Europe, probably learning more than a few new tricks as they went.

Barton-Wright was the first Englishman to distinguish between jiujitsu and judo in writing, but his definitions were pretty eccentric (I can quote him if that would be useful). Deliberately or not, Tani and Uyenishi both ended up following the Kodokan model of developing their jiujitsu as a safe sport that could be included in physical education curricula, although it's evident that they also taught the full complement of self defence kata; so in a sense, they were "doing judo" well before the founding of the Budokwai.

It's no surprise that the books produced by the second and third generation teachers (Longhurst, Sutherland, Collingridge, Watts et al) contain such a diverse range of techniques.

It may also be worth noting that, going by the books they produced, the idea of the ryu as such doesn't seem to have entered the equation during the early decades of the 20th century. To the British jiujitsuka of the time, it was all just jiujitsu.

Tony

[bu-kusa]

The entire period of history from the creation of judo and beyond is fascinating and one I do intend to research thoroughly. The main aspect that I’m currently interested in and in fact having great difficulty with at the moment is the actual training connection between this early judo/jitsu in Britain of the ‘early decades of the 20th century’’ and the jiujitsu currently practised by the WJJF etc. Is there a documented training history, or is current British jiujitsu merely a foundationless new creation.

Many thanks for you time

[Tony Wolf]

Hi Paul,

I understand; my only point is to suggest that if the modern WJJF does somehow descend from the Bartitsu/post-Bartitsu era, even to the original British JuJitsu Society, then the actual connections to traditional JJJ would still be pretty hard to trace given all the different elements that have gone into the mix over the past hundred years or so.

You might try to contact Graham Noble and James Shortt, they've both done extensive first-hand research into the history of the Japanese martial arts in England.

Tony