What dan level should be running a dojo?

[Victor Smith]

The standards I use for instructor qualification have nothing to do with dan level. These are only minimum qualification standards to be consiered an instructor.

1. At least 15 continious years training with one instructor.
2. An interest to share the art.
3. Particiaption in an instructor mentoring program where they have to follow one group of students the entire way from program entrance to sho dan examination.

There are no exceptions to these standards. Even a dan in our system who joined the program and wanted to become an instructor has to follow the same standards, such as 15 continious years training in our group.

Each group has a unique sigature style of movement dynamics that underlies it's existence. Unless one truly has experienced it, and been exposed to how it is propogated in new students at all levels, they simply aren't qualified to instruct.

This is different from standing before a group teaching, it's instead having the knowledge to guide and share a very specific training experience.

But as I stated, these are simply the minimum qualification standards. The instrutors I've trained have a similar set of mind on this approach value.

[Kikbaq]

I think your standards are great, but I think that at this point--in this day in age that you will only find handfulls of people from handfulls of arts that actually apply to these standards. And I am more than willing to bet that to apply to these standards, you would have to commit to staying in the same location on a regular basis until your 15 years were up.

That means if you seek to be an instructor in "art a" you are willing to get stuck working at Wal-Mart and having low quality of wages and life, provided its the only place in your town that needs employees, just to keep training in "art a" under "A sensei", before you can teach.

Most people are conditioned to want a high quality of life, and if this means moving away from their teacher to a place where they can make more money and live a higher quality of life, that they simply need to turn back the clock and start the 15 years over with a new teacher in a new place? Whats their ultimatum? Is it that they must start over or give up the idea of teaching others?

I know this has to sound extreme, but I would like to know how my argument might apply to your standards of minimum qualifications.

[Victor Smith]

Nope, no Walmart folks, and I have nothing against any career, whether for Walmart or otherwise.

Yes my standards do require one to stay in the area and keep training.

My youth students all leave after high school, no matter how accomplished they have become. That is the nature of maturing.

My adults are mostly individuals in skilled professions and make their living in their work, just as I do. I don't teach commercially (actually I teach for free) nor do the instructors I've developed, for they see the value in following a our path.

The issue of course is that personal study is the real key, and teaching before your training has reached a significent level doesn't help one's development.

I've seen many who start teaching too early and discontinue higher training, focusing on making their programs cash revenue more important.

The end result is generation after generation of instructor is less competent.

But then perhaps I have a very different standard what personal development must work towards.

Most dan students are in long term training for their own purposes, not to become instructors. Those who want to share with a larger piece of the art are willing to undergo the long term sacrifice that becoming an instructor involves.

I offer no path for quick reward.

pleasantly,

[Adam Westphal]

Stanley, why did you ask the question? I think you'll find from these responses that the answer is largely dependent on the system.

Are you asking because you're interested in teaching?
Or you're questioning someone else's credentials to teach?

[OkiGoshukan]

Hi Stanley,
First, I'm new to this forum, so I'll start with an introduction.
I am Garry Parker, I own and operate a small dojo in Georgia, I received much of my training and instruction while stationed in Okinawa, and living in Okinawa after my discharge.
I have read most of the replies and everyone has different yet valid points.
Ultimately, the decision is left to the teacher. You must remember that different styles/associations/teachers etc. have different standards for rank advancement. A shodan in ATA tkd will probably not be equal to a shodan in Uechi-ryu simply due to the variance in standards.
IMHO, the martial arts world suffers from an epidemic of 'paper tigers' or unqualified rank-holders, however-this is not the forum for this discussion.
In that vein, a qualified teacher will recognize the necessary qualities in his student to be a good teacher.
I began training in 1984, and was asked by my teacher to begin teaching in 1998, I opened my first dojo in 1999 as a nidan. To me, that was a tremendous amount of trust from my teacher, as he was still in Okinawa and not physically present to check in on me. It is also a tremendous responsibility to be THE ambassador for your teacher and style. Every action taken by the student- good or bad- reflects on the teacher.
This is only my viewpoint, and I realize that your milage may vary.

Sincerely,
Garry Parker
Okinawa Goshukan-Ryu
Columbus Dojo

Folks,

At what dan level should one be considered qualified to run their one school? Is shodan adequate? Nidan? Sandan?Yondan?

I know of some qualified shodans and some sketchy shicidans (well one anyway.)

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks

Stanley Neptune

[Katsu!]

I reallly don't like seeing 1-2dans running full dojos by themselves, a training group is one thing, that's fine; but a shodan or nidan starting up his own dojo and asking people for 50-100bucks a month to learn from someone who's been training for a year or two isn't all that cool IMO. Not enough experience.

I definatelly agree.

Tell me where can you get a shodan in 1 or 2 years? Thats terrible!


Regards,

Marko Miletic

[Anders Pettersson]

Tell me where can you get a shodan in 1 or 2 years? Thats terrible!

In Japan.

/Anders

[Katsu!]

That would be through training every day more or less?

M.Miletic

[Anders Pettersson]

That would be through training every day more or less?

No, not really. Ordinary training three times a week could probably get you easily to shodan in less than two years in many Japanese budo.

/Anders

[Kikbaq]

I believe that this pertains to many (not all) karate-do systems. My uncle got his black belt (I have to assume shodan) in Karate in about a year when he was stationed in Japan in the 60s. He said weekends and maybe an afternoon during the week was dedicated to indoor and outdoor practice. In his case it doesnt matter, because he never ran a dojo, just taught a few relatives and friends a little here and there. But he trained 3 days a week for decades after returning to the states.

I dont know that his year of Japanese training, or his rank qualified him as an ideal dojo-cho. I happen to think that after about 10 years of his solo routines and makiwara training, he had created in him something valuable to spread to others.

I am honestly not too sure on how things were looked at in terms of rank and legitimacy in times where there may not have been as many organizations of official establishments. Perceptions have changed a great deal world wide regarding martial arts instruction. I find it very cool that there are so many folks posting on the subject to shed light on where people stand. I think it has been established that a student will expect their teacher to have a moderate amount of experience in the art (year or years in some, decades in others--depending on the art or organization) and ultimately a desire to teach.

Ultimately, as a student... We all must make the choice of what we spend our money and our time on. If you think that an instructor is under qualified, dont attend his or her class. Unfortunately, from a consumers point of view, there is no one-size-fits-all mold for martial arts instructors to fit into. Everybody has different standards, as does every organization, as does every art. Be objective in your quest to learn or settle for whatever, its your money and your lives.

As there is no ultimate martial art, you should focus on what you can get from an art that you fancy. In this i mean how you benefit from the training, not necessarily anything tangible.

Anyhow, just thought I'd throw that out there.

[rwfowler]

Rank and Teaching are two separate issues. Most associations offer teaching titles separate. High Rank and titles are more often given out of polotics. Of course most high ranking individual will disagree. In my opinion rank is a chain of command within ones own organization. Unless the head of an organization is familar with you, it is unlikely that you will be accepted on face value of a certificate. We have all seen people with certificates from reputable organizations that do not have very high level of skills. And the same goes for independents. But we have seen great teachers and practioners from both.

3 of the most wanted instructors are Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, and Mike Stone. Non of which accepted ranks higher that 1st dan until here in recent history. All three earned dan ranks in Okinawa in less that 1yr. If you do not think they are good practioners, go to a siminar. They will be glad to get in the ring with you. :~)

[Josh Reyer]

No, not really. Ordinary training three times a week could probably get you easily to shodan in less than two years in many Japanese budo.

/Anders

Heck, twice a week would probably be enough. There are not a great many dojo in Japan that are open more than twice a week.

Zero to shodan at the aikido Hombu Dojo (Aikikai) is 300 practice days. At three days a week (and Hombu Dojo is open everyday), that's 100 weeks. One year and 11 months.

[Kikbaq]

In regards to teaching and rank, rfowler is absolutely correct that one of these details doesnt necessarily begat the other.

I know that in the Bujinkan: if our teacher promotes us to a dan rank, he or she may also grant us the title of Shidoshi-ho (assistant or junior teacher), they also reserve the right of not granting us this title. In order for this title to mean anything we have to observe the policies established for this gift and responsibility by securing each year a Bujinkan Shidoshi-kai card. For us to promote rank in the Bujinkan our students too have an annual membership obligation to fulfil. Also as Shidoshi-ho we also answer to and are guided by a Shidoshi of Godan rank or higher.

I would imagine however that there are many folks ranked 1st through 4th dan out there that arent given the Shidoshi-ho title. I think in any art it is that person in question's teacher that has the power to permit that person the priviledge of teaching, just as they must have the sole responsibity of not permitting it and/or stopping it when it shouldn't be done.

[Ed_morris]

I agree with Victor's standards but would qualify it with adding the assumption of it being part-time study. (although I'd break it down to 10 years continuous training + 5 year continuous training as mentor).


Then there is the reality that not all are geered for teaching the Art they claim. I think the mainstream of many that seek to teach and run a dojo have other things in mind than propegating their Art. Reasons ranging from providing 'community service' as an activity for health, making money, Ego status setting or blends of all.

While people may be competant coaches, franchise attendants or journey businessmen ...that doesn't speak to the subjective qualifications of propegating Art.

Legally, commercial dojos are considered a place of business....and literally anyone can open a business. How they choose to 'legitimize' or 'qualify' themselves becomes a marketing decision - not subject to the qualifications of opening that business.