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Thread: A question about Gyokko Ryu, Gikan Ryu and Koto Ryu

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    Default A question about Gyokko Ryu, Gikan Ryu and Koto Ryu

    now this is just a question in regards to the 3 ryu-ha mentioned, i was reading in one of Hatsumi Soke's books titled "Way of the Ninja" "secret techniques" and under the passage titled "Ninjutsu Diversity" Hatsumi Sensei mentions that Gyokko Ryu, Gikan Ryu and Koto Ryu are Ninjutsu schools i can understand Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu but not so much with Gikan Ryu what does everyone else think.

    -Giuseppe
    Giuseppe Storto,

    Bujinkan Ninpo/Budo Taijutsu
    Shadow Warrior Bujinkan Dojo

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    Please sign your posts with your full name per forum rules...
    Jason Chambers
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    will do Mr Chambers, could you perhaps enlighten me on the question about the 3 ryu-ha's i have mentioned Thank you.

    -Giuseppe Storto
    Giuseppe Storto,

    Bujinkan Ninpo/Budo Taijutsu
    Shadow Warrior Bujinkan Dojo

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    Are you sure of that? I was always under the impression that only three ryu contained ninjutsu...
    Michael Kelly

    Ironically neither a Niten Ichi practitioner or in fact a ninja.

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    This is really a contentious issue, and there are many views on this, and there are posts elsewhere on both this and martial art planet if you care to do a serach.
    There is a view that if the school has ninjutsu after it i.e Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu, it is a Ninjutsu school, but it has Koshijutsu afer its name such as Gyokko Ryu it isn't.
    I believe I am right in stating that the word Ninja, and hence Ninjutsu are words created in the twentieth century. Therefore in the past the Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu school like others may have simply been called Togakure Ryu.
    Fact is that Gyokko Ryu is the foundation of Ninjutsu, and of course it was also used by the Grandmaster of that Ryu Sandayu Momochi, who was also grandmaster of Koto Ryu and a Ninja, and one of the most famous in History in fact.
    Now a lot of people will disagree with me, as they have done in the past before Dr Hatsumi brought out that book you mentioned. But even when you are quoting from Hatsumi's books to prove a point, those that disagree (Some from the Bujinkan who's teacher happens to be Hatsumi Sensei) state that i'm wrong and the book has been mistranslated, or worse that you can only understand Dr Hatsumi's books if you are a direct student of Dr Hatsumi. In my opinion this is a just a strategy to save face, but unfortunately these people end up disagreeing with their teacher Dr Hatsumi.

    My opinion is that if Dr Hatsumi, and others like Tanemura state that Gyokko Ryu is a Ninjutsu school (and they have) it would be wise to believe them.

    Gary Arthur
    www.toshindo.co.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by G Arthur
    Now a lot of people will disagree with me, as they have done in the past before Dr Hatsumi brought out that book you mentioned. But even when you are quoting from Hatsumi's books to prove a point, those that disagree (Some from the Bujinkan who's teacher happens to be Hatsumi Sensei) state that i'm wrong and the book has been mistranslated, or worse that you can only understand Dr Hatsumi's books if you are a direct student of Dr Hatsumi. In my opinion this is a just a strategy to save face, but unfortunately these people end up disagreeing with their teacher Dr Hatsumi.
    Uh yeah, like every Japanese shihan I have talked with on the matter.

    The fact is that you need Gyokko ryu, etc as part of the process of learning ninjutsu. But you are not fully qualified to call yourself one until you learn a very basic lesson from Togakure ryu, etc. That seems to be why Hatsumi has never come out with a video, etc titled "Gyokko ryu Ninjutsu." So the situation is like this- you can say that Gyokko ryu is part of the ninjutsu process, but if you only study Gyokko ryu and claim to be doing ninjutsu you are wrong.

    Gikan ryu is, as the original poster stated, a bit off from the lineages of the Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu. It is said to have started with them, but it went off in another direction. You can say that it's roots started out in the homeland of ninjutsu.

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    [QUOTE=G Arthur]This is really a contentious issue, and there are many views on this, and there are posts elsewhere on both this and martial art planet if you care to do a serach.
    There is a view that if the school has ninjutsu after it i.e Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu, it is a Ninjutsu school, but it has Koshijutsu afer its name such as Gyokko Ryu it isn't.
    I believe I am right in stating that the word Ninja, and hence Ninjutsu are words created in the twentieth century. Therefore in the past the Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu school like others may have simply been called Togakure Ryu.
    Fact is that Gyokko Ryu is the foundation of Ninjutsu, and of course it was also used by the Grandmaster of that Ryu Sandayu Momochi, who was also grandmaster of Koto Ryu and a Ninja, and one of the most famous in History in fact.
    Now a lot of people will disagree with me, as they have done in the past before Dr Hatsumi brought out that book you mentioned. But even when you are quoting from Hatsumi's books to prove a point, those that disagree (Some from the Bujinkan who's teacher happens to be Hatsumi Sensei) state that i'm wrong and the book has been mistranslated, or worse that you can only understand Dr Hatsumi's books if you are a direct student of Dr Hatsumi. In my opinion this is a just a strategy to save face, but unfortunately these people end up disagreeing with their teacher Dr Hatsumi.

    My opinion is that if Dr Hatsumi, and others like Tanemura state that Gyokko Ryu is a Ninjutsu school (and they have) it would be wise to believe them.

    Gary Arthur
    www.toshindo.co.uk[/

    Thank You very much Mr Garry Arthur and thank you to everyone who has given me an answer to my question, and it has been said in the past that Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu might have been put to use by the ninja in the famous "Tensho Iga No Ran Battle" against Oda Nobunaga and his band of warriors. Still i am indeed a little confused with Gikan Ryu even though it is said to be a derivative from Gyokko Ryu along side Koto Ryu.
    But again many thanks.
    Giuseppe Storto,

    Bujinkan Ninpo/Budo Taijutsu
    Shadow Warrior Bujinkan Dojo

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    Default Gyokko Ryu/Koto Ryu Ninjutsu

    Ninjutsu is feudal Japanese unorthodox fighting tactics.

    Many schools traditionally (and I believe still do) CONTAIN ninjutsu, such as Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. Whether it is still taught in those schools, passed on to select individuals as a historical oddity, or forgotten altogether, I cannot say. Traditionally, however, there were no schools OF ninjutsu. It was not a study in and of itself, but rather something to add to and refine your regular training. Much as you cannot join the army and go straight to Special Forces training, you could not start your martial training with ninjutsu- you must know orthodox fighting before you can learn unorthodox fighting.

    The Bujinkan has three schools that are said to be schools OF ninjutsu:

    Togakure Ryu
    Kumogakure Ryu
    Gyokushin Ryu

    This being said, Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu (and if the original poster is correct, Gikan Ryu) CONTAINED ninjutsu within their curriculum. However, at some point- probably either Takamatsu-Sensei or Hatsumi-Sensi- removed the ninjutsu from these schools and put it into Togakure Ryu. Togakure Ryu has traditionally been called "Togakure Ryu Happo Hiken" and NOT "Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu/Ninpo/Whatever." This is why one must have a proficiency in Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu before they can appropriately acquire a proficiency in Togakure Ryu.

    Whether the three schools above are truly historical schools of ninjutsu, or whether they are more recent creations that contain within them the ninjutsu that was taught in the six other schools, I do not know.

    Hope this clears up some of the confusion.

    Arnold Davies

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    Thank you to the above, one more thing that i wish to ask about is i feel that the Genbukan emphasizes on Ninpo alot more than the Bujinkan. As the Genbukan is known as Genbukan Ninpo Taijutsu, where as the Bujinkan have replaced the term Ninpo thus it is now known as Budo Taijutsu.
    Giuseppe Storto,

    Bujinkan Ninpo/Budo Taijutsu
    Shadow Warrior Bujinkan Dojo

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    "I believe I am right in stating that the word Ninja, and hence Ninjutsu are words created in the twentieth century."

    I've seen many sources that would suggest that although ninjutsu is tat old, the word ninja is a meiji restoration or late Tokugawa era word.

    "it has been said in the past that Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu might have been put to use by the ninja in the famous "Tensho Iga No Ran Battle"

    Which wouldn't mean very much and wouldn't make them ninjutsu.

    "against Oda Nobunaga and his band of warriors."

    I think Oda Nobunaga had a bit more than a "band" of warriors.

    "Thank you to the above, one more thing that i wish to ask about is i feel that the Genbukan emphasizes on Ninpo alot more than the Bujinkan. As the Genbukan is known as Genbukan Ninpo Taijutsu, where as the Bujinkan have replaced the term Ninpo thus it is now known as Budo Taijutsu."

    Tread carefully with sweeping statements.
    Michael Kelly

    Ironically neither a Niten Ichi practitioner or in fact a ninja.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G Arthur
    I believe I am right in stating that the word Ninja, and hence Ninjutsu are words created in the twentieth century.
    The terms ninja and ninjutsu may be modern words, but the kanji that they are pronounciations of are not. For example, in the Ashikaga annal known as the Nochi Kagami (circa Muromachi Jidai), we read:

    "Concerning shinobi no mono, they are said to be from Iga and Koga and went freely into enemy castles secretly. They saw hidden things and were considered allies. Strategists call them kagimono hiki."

    In addition, there are a number of ninjutsu treatises from the Edo Jidai, such as the Bansenshukai, Shoninki, and Ninpiden. All of these works make reference to the terms shinobi no mono and shinobi no jutsu. In fact, the second volume of the Bansenshukai even contains a discussion on the meaning of shinobi.

    And, for whatever it's worth, my personal opinion is that none of these schools were probably formally codified into actual ryuha until the Edo Jidai or later (most likely by members of the Toda family).

    Laterz.
    Trent Whilden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bujinkan83
    As the Genbukan is known as Genbukan Ninpo Taijutsu,
    The taijutsu that we study in the Genbukan is ninpo-taijutsu, but the Genbukan is not known as "Genbukan Ninpo Taijutsu." We are known as "Genbukan Ninpo Bugei."
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Cat
    Uh yeah, like every Japanese shihan I have talked with on the matter.

    The fact is that you need Gyokko ryu, etc as part of the process of learning ninjutsu.
    I know I am taking your comment a little out of context, but it is my opinion that even leaving that comment in context, I very strongly disagree with that statement.

    Dozens of schools of ninjutsu existed long before the Bujinkan was ever created and far before gyokko ryu was associated with Togakure ryu by everyone and their dog.

    Do tell me, just how did ninjutsu exist in somewhere like Mutsu or Shimosa provinces when either gyokko ryu or togakure ryu were obviously was not taught in those provinces on a wide scale, yet there were ninja families living there?

    And if you believe the legends, gyokko and koto ryu were only taught to a few people (or even only one person) in one family, and that was that.

    Obviously there were ninjas out there that didn't learn santo tonko or anything from gyokko or koto ryu but still managed to do stuff like make maps, gather intelligence, steal food supplies and carry out other intelligence in other various ways.

    Ninjutsu being invented in the 20th century is just wrong and I am perplexed at why Gary Arthur even said it, and I feel a little sorry for him for saying it. Maybe you need to look at bansenshukai. Even with a tiny knowledge of kanji you can figure out ninjutsu existed at the time of its writing. Bansenshukai is available on the internet in its full form, in pdf format, written in kanbun. Google it.

    I believe John Lindsay (the owner of this forum; member of the genbukan; currently in Iraq) has mentioned in the past that Gyokko ryu has indications of edo period movements. I would tend to agree with this if for the only reason that they are both schools based around fighting -without- armor. So that indicates that they were probably created in the edo period, or at least modified during the edo period to be performed without the use of armor. There is the possibility that the schools are very old and were simply always based around fighting in armor but I think that is pretty unusual for a Japanese art that reportedly was founded around some of the war-iest (not a word) times in Japanese history.

    My personal opinion is that a lot of schools from Takamatsu and other teachers contain ninjutsu, and that only western people (or people influenced by negative western perceptions, and also Japanese influenced by untrue rumours) think of ninjutsu in such narrow terms as 'togakure, gyokushin, kumogakure'. Look at shinden fudo ryu for example. Most of us think of it as a 'samurai ryu'. Well some of that stuff is pretty similar in thinking to ninja methods.. Maybe it's worth a closer inspection.

    I generally just use the word ninjutsu as a catch-all phrase for certain ryu which I feel deserve the term based on their content. There are times when it's appropriate to call a ryu ninjutsu, and there are times when it's not appropriate.

    Just my thoughts on the matter.
    Cory Burke
    ゴゴゴ!

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    Quote Originally Posted by paradoxbox
    I know I am taking your comment a little out of context, but it is my opinion that even leaving that comment in context, I very strongly disagree with that statement.
    paradoxbox,

    What I think Don is saying is that if you want to learn Togakure-ryu you have to master Gyokko-ryu first (he also said "ect" which I assume he is referring to Koto-ryu).
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    With that I agree somewhat, and I guess I could agree fully with that statement if you are talking about learning togakure ryu as taught by Hatsumi sensei. But there is also the matter of some of what we know as togakure ryu coming from non gyokko / koto ryu sources, and also the ability of people to be able to learn how to do certain things without knowing where those things came from (nor why they're doing them). There is all kinds of stuff that murkies the waters around togakure ryu.
    Cory Burke
    ゴゴゴ!

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