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Thread: Secrets of the Samurai?

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    Default Secrets of the Samurai?

    I know this has been asked before but I was not hear to read the responses.
    I was lead to believe that this book was accurate and had very good sources. A friend in another fourm told me other wise and cited that he got his information from this fourm. Please help me find the truth about:

    Secrets of the Samurai: A Survey of the Martial Arts of Feudal Japan (Hardcover) by Oscar Ratti, Adele Westbrook "The long history and complex tradition of the Japanese art of combat is embodied in a variety of forms, methods, and weapons, each of which..."

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    Hello Matthew,
    Welcome to the forum. It is a forum rule, that you agreed to when you signed up, that all of your posts must have your real name. The easiest way to do this is to click "User CP" at the top, then click "Edit Signature" on the side. You can add your real name to your signature, and it will show up at the end of every post.

    On to your question ... Ratti and Westbrook are aikidoka, not historians. What they did for their book, was to gather everything that they could find in English about the samurai, and compile it into a single volume. The book is entertaining and has some good information in it. Unfortunately, it also has oral histories and suppositions written as facts. In fact, it has some serious errors carried over from other works that they used to compile this book. Most of the book is pretty good. The big problem is that unless you are very familiar with the history of Japan, you won't know what is fact and what is not. This is why many people don't put a lot of store in this particular book as a reference. It does make a good starting point, but make sure that anything you use out of there is substantiated by other sources.

    At least, that's my view of it.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    Thank you for your help. Anyother advice on this book or others that might be better about describeing the martial history of Japan would be apreciated

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    This was one of the first books I was told I should read. Even then as a teenager, I was scratching my head, wondering where the heck some of their historical references came from.

    Now, I see the book as "Japan and martial culture as Ratti and Westbrook wanted it to be" based on their only exposure to Japanese martial culture, namely aikido. It's pretty clear the authors were very enthused about their project, but also very clear to anyone who has studied Japanese history beyond a Time Life book and the internet that they didn't know what they were doing in about half the things they write about. Time Life books make a better reference work in my opinion.

    That said, I get a good chuckle reading it now. I have a copy on my bookshelf still, it does have some nice bits on aikido ideals as taught in the timeframe of the 1960's. It's a fun read, but take everything in there with a grain of salt, MSG, and a splash of shoyu as to accuracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamu_Nestor
    Thank you for your help. Anyother advice on this book or others that might be better about describeing the martial history of Japan would be apreciated
    Mr Mattson,

    I suggest you look at two books as a good starting point:
    G Cameron Hurst III's Armed Martial Arts of Japan: Swordsmanship and Archery
    Karl Friday's Samurai, Warfare and the State in Early Medieval Japan.

    I am sure you can find the details at Amazon or Barnes & Noble.

    And please do not forget the name rule. The E-Budo Rules have recently been updated and are displayed in a separate forum.

    Best wishes,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Thank you for the help. And I thought that I had fixed the problem before my second post, but it obviously did not save. But you all still found my name on my profile.
    Matthew Matson
    BS Sport Managment / Health & Wellness, OPT, SFS, IFS, Cooper Bio Mechanics

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    Quote Originally Posted by P Goldsbury
    G Cameron Hurst III's Armed Martial Arts of Japan: Swordsmanship and Archery
    Karl Friday's Samurai, Warfare and the State in Early Medieval Japan.
    I heard the book "Shinsengumi: The Shogun's Last Samurai Corps - Romulus Hillsborough" should also be very interesting especially for the Meiji period. I am attempted to buy it since this period is of greatest interest to me. The movie "Mibu gishi den" is currently my favorite and want to read more about the historical facts.
    Norbert Funke
    日本人では無い
    http://saw.wikia.com

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    Secrets: As a history book, it's got lots of very nice illustrations.

    Others to avoid:

    ~Anything based on, part of or translated from the Hagakure, by Tsunemoto Yamamoto
    ~Anything 'translated' by 'Hanshi' Steve Kaufman
    ~Anything by Ashida Kim (Just joking, you already knew that).
    ~Bushido, the Soul of Japan, by Inazo Nitobe

    (Hmm, don't we have a bad budo books thread somewhere?)

    What to read:
    ~Sword and Mind, Yagyu Muenori, trans by Hiroaki Sato
    ~Legacies of the Sword: The Kashima-Shinryu and Samurai Martial Culture by Karl F. Friday and Fumitake Seki Humitake
    ~The Koryu Budo trilogy, edited by Diane Skoss:
    Koryu Bujutsu: Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan
    Keiko Shokon: Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan
    Sword and Spirit
    ~Classical Fighting Arts of Japan, by Serge Mol (he's got his critics, but mostly, I liked it)
    ~Old School, by Ellis Amdur
    ~The Fighting Spirit of Japan, by EJ Harrison (it's a little woo in places, but overall was a defining and seminal work on budo in English)
    ~Any of Draeger's books.

    YMMV, of course.
    Chuck Gordon
    Mugendo Budogu
    http://www.budogu.com/

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    mr gordon,
    just curious but why do you have a problem with the Hagakure, by Tsunemoto Yamamoto and Bushido, the Soul of Japan, by Inazo Nitobe.
    my guess is they are ultra nationalist propaganda. but i always found the Hagakure interesting, if a bit mental, especially after the Ghost dog movie.

    thanks
    oisin goodall

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    Heya Oisin ...

    Taken _in context_ both are excellent glimpses at very small slices of the history and culture of Japan.

    Hagakure, especially, has been blown WAY out of porportion in the budo library. It was basically a rant, penned by a disgruntled mid-level paper pusher who was pissed off because he hadn't had the opportunity to die a lovely death in the service of his master. He never swung a sword in battle, and apparently had also been denied the privilege of seppuku when one of his supervisors died.

    It highlights a very small slice of samurai life for a particular period, for one individual. Taken so, it's an interesting read.

    However, taken out of that context, it has become sort of a budo bible for some folks who don't know the background. Hakagure's highly stylized and affected 'proper behaviors' of the samurai class are sometimes pointed out as examplars of budo behavior. Tsunemoto was what field soldiers would call a REMF, and his writing, IMHO, exemplified some of the worst of the fobbish attitudes and behaviors of those samurai who were more bookkeepers and accountants than warriors.

    Again, in context, an interesting read, but not at all representative of budo (or even Japanese) history generally. Twilight Samurai (can't remember the Japanese name right now) is a far better representation of the same period, IIRC.

    Bushido. I actually have a (I think it is) 1911 copy. Very interesting book, but not very Japanese, I fear. Nitobe spent most of his life outside Japan, and had little or no experience with budo or with the samurai way of life. He was, in fact, a devout Christian who was trying to reconcile his Japanese heritage with European ideals of Christian chivalry.

    One theory that I've heard is that he was seeking to use Bushido to influence Japanese to convert to Christianity.

    So, once again, background of the book in mind, yes, it's an interesting peek into Nitobe's mind, but again, IMHO, had little to do with the subject.
    Last edited by Chuck.Gordon; 26th March 2006 at 09:23. Reason: de-dyslexifying ...
    Chuck Gordon
    Mugendo Budogu
    http://www.budogu.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck.Gordon

    Twilight Samurai (can't remember the Japanese name right now) is a far better representation of the same period, IIRC.
    "Tasogare Seibei." "Mibu gishi den" is often sold with it (on Amazon, for example) and offers an interesting look at a fictional bakumatsu retainer who doesn't give a whoop about the lofty ideals of his colleagues. Don't know about the history, but then it's just a movie, so I don't plan on using it as a reference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by funknor
    I heard the book "Shinsengumi: The Shogun's Last Samurai Corps - Romulus Hillsborough" should also be very interesting especially for the Meiji period. I am attempted to buy it since this period is of greatest interest to me. The movie "Mibu gishi den" is currently my favorite and want to read more about the historical facts.
    Yes, I have the book. It is rather better, in my opinion, than his earlier work on Sakamoto Ryoma. Hillsborough gives all his source material for each chapter, so it is easy for those who have the inclination to check his reasoning and conclusions.

    Here in Japan we are still recovering from the NHK taiga dorama Shinsengumi, with the lead role badly acted by one of the SMAP boys.
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck.Gordon
    Twilight Samurai (can't remember the Japanese name right now) is a far better representation of the same period, IIRC.
    Hello Chuck,

    Have you seen Yamada Yoji's second attempt on the same theme? The name is Kakushiken Oni no Tsume (the English would be something like Hidden Sword: Devil's Claw). Very similar theme to that of Tasogare Seibei, except that gunpowder plays a larger role (I will not give away the ending).
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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    Quote Originally Posted by P Goldsbury
    Kakushiken Oni no Tsume (the English would be something like Hidden Sword: Devil's Claw)...
    Heya Peter,

    No, not yet. Haven't even SEEN the name before. Know if it's available in the West?

    cg
    Chuck Gordon
    Mugendo Budogu
    http://www.budogu.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck.Gordon
    Heya Peter,

    No, not yet. Haven't even SEEN the name before. Know if it's available in the West?

    cg
    Hello Chuck,

    If you access Imdb.com here:
    http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=Kak...A+oni+no+tsume

    you will find details.

    Best,

    PAG
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

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