width of grip in (aiki-)jo

[jss]

Hi,

I practice aikido and thus aiki-ken and aiki-jo.
In bokken-jo kata all teachers say that the advantage of the sword is that it's sharper and the advantage of the jo that it's longer. Ironically most people have such a wide grip in e.g. yokomen uchi that it completely negates the advantage in length.
So what are the recommendations of the koryu on the width of the grip?

[Fred27]

Funny you should mention it. We have an aikidoka in our SMR-group. He just started wtith Jodo this semester but has trained aikido for 11 years (and aiki-jo). It kinda notices sometimes since he has this habbit of griping the jo at about half it's length (in some techniques), whereas the ideal grip would be with one hand at the base and the other upwards at roughly one quarter of the jo's length.

Kinda like this:

In other techniques the grip is a bit wider to suit the situation:

Those pics are from a Jodo Kihon (basic) techniques DVD so I assume the first one is the basic solo "Honte Uchi" kamae , (first technique of Kihon), and the second pic is "Kuri Tsuke", number 7 Kihon-technique with a partner.

So with that grip you will have the length-advantage over a swordsman...That was one of the first things, (if not the first thing), I was taught when I started with Jodo.

[Guy LeSieur]

Message deleted.

[Brian Owens]

...So what are the recommendations of the koryu on the width of the grip?

I don't practice koryu jo, but rather Seiki Ryu Jodo (a gendai, Aiki-jo art).

I'd say, "It depends."

The great advantage of the jo is flexibility. It can be held in a rather wide grip for leverage, or a narrow grip for reach; or anything in between. Even one-handed, as needed.

Thoughts?

[Brian Owens]

...Those pics are from a Jodo Kihon (basic) techniques DVD...

That looks like Shimabukuro Sensei.

I know of him as a Karate and an Iai teacher. I didn't know he did Jodo. Does the DVD specify if it's SMR or ZNKR Seitei Jo he's doing?

[Fred27]

That looks like Shimabukuro Sensei.

I know of him as a Karate and an Iai teacher. I didn't know he did Jodo. Does the DVD specify if it's SMR or ZNKR Seitei Jo he's doing?

Hm..well the DVD description says:

8th dan Kyoshi, Masayuki Shimabukuro instructs the Kihon (Basics) of Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo in this video. The founder of Jodo, Muso Gonnosuke, was the only person to ever beat the legendary Musashi Miyamoto. Reenacted at the beginning of this film is that legendary battle. Contents include:History of Shinto Muso Ryu
Etiquette -sitting -standing
Jo Posture -ritsu jo -sage jo
Jo Kamae
Sword Handling
Sword Kamae
Sword Strikes
12 Basic Strikes of Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo
Striking Application shown with Partner

So I guess it's the main SMR he is doing on the DVD.

*EDIT*

Hold it! Maybe it's not. Check this related product: Seitei Kata DVD In that one it says:

8th dan Kyoshi, Masayuki Shimabukuro instructs the Seitei Katachi (Paired Kata) of Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo in this video. The founder of Jodo, Muso Gonnosuke, was the only person to ever beat the legendary Musashi Miyamoto. Reenacted at the beginning of this film is that legendary battle. Contents include:All 12 paired kata of Shinto Muso Ryu
Regular and slow motion
Multiple camera angles
Professional narrative explanation

From the descriptions I got the impression he was doing Shinto Muso-ryu rather than "All 12 paired kata of Shinto Muso-ryu" (which is actually 12 seitekata of ZKNR

[kokumo]

There are variations in particular circumstances, but the kihon within the system of aikijo taught by Mitsugi Saotome is roughly:

For aikiken, a distance of one fist between the two hands on the tsuka.

For aikijo, a distance of two fists between the two hands on the jo.

More than that and you may be making your partner distort his or her technique to avoid hitting your forward hand in many situations.

That said, my experience is that unless you're working with an aikidoka who has trained directly with a shihan who places a strong emphasis on aikiken and aikijo, or who has some koryu weapons experience, you're likely to be working with someone that hasn't had terribly precise instruction in this area.

FL

[jss]

The great advantage of the jo is flexibility. It can be held in a rather wide grip for leverage, or a narrow grip for reach; or anything in between.

Doesn't a wider grip reduce leverage?

[Lowriderx52]

In other techniques the grip is a bit wider to suit the situation:

Those pics are from a Jodo Kihon (basic) techniques DVD so I assume the first one is the basic solo "Honte Uchi" kamae , (first technique of Kihon), and the second pic is "Kuri Tsuke", number 7 Kihon-technique with a partner.

So with that grip you will have the length-advantage over a swordsman...That was one of the first things, (if not the first thing), I was taught when I started with Jodo.

this guy wrote a book on Eishin Ryu right? I recognize him from that book.

[Brian Owens]

Doesn't a wider grip reduce leverage?

It depends on how you're using it. If you consider the hand on the end of the jo as the power hand, and the forward hand as the fulcrum, the greater the distance between the force and the fulcrum the greater the leverage at the far end.

"Give me a long enough lever, and a place to stand, and I could move the world."

[Brian Owens]

this guy wrote a book on Eishin Ryu right? I recognize him from that book.

Yes. Shimabukuro Sensei wrote Flashing Steel.

[Fred27]

Yes. Shimabukuro Sensei wrote Flashing Steel.

Wow thats him? I own the flashing steel book. I think the current headmaster of his Eishin-ryu iaijutsu style has a quite high rank in Shinto Muso-ryu too.

[Carl Long]

Wow thats him? I own the flashing steel book. I think the current headmaster of his Eishin-ryu iaijutsu style has a quite high rank in Shinto Muso-ryu too.

Miura Takeyuki Hanshi studied Jodo with Shimizu Sensei, Nakajima Sensei and Otofuji Sensei. As well as his 7th dan Shihan in Shito Ryu Karatedo from Mabuni Kenzo soke, Shimabukuro Sensei is currently ranked 7th Dan in Jodo and 8th Dan Hanshi in MJER. Shimabukuro Sensei has studied and teaches both Seitei and Koryu Jo. He has studied Jodo with both Miura Sensei and Matsuda Sensei. I hope this helps.

[jss]

It depends on how you're using it. If you consider the hand on the end of the jo as the power hand, and the forward hand as the fulcrum, the greater the distance between the force and the fulcrum the greater the leverage at the far end.

The only technique I can ome up with is controlling your opponent's weapon. Or are there others?
When delivering a strike, I'd rather think of my shoulder as the fulcrum.

"Give me a long enough lever, and a place to stand, and I could move the world."

Archimedes, right? ;-)

[Fred27]

Speaking of Saotome-sensei, I have a copy of his film "The Staff of Aikido", and if i were to go by that movie alone, I would say that his Aiki-jo uses use a forward grip at around the 35-40% section of the jo's length.