width of grip in (aiki-)jo

[Ron Tisdale]

I think most of the good aiki-jo I've seen divides the jo into 3rds. Sometimes less for thrusts like the one to the face...the hands are closer than in honte (sp) no kamae, which is the end of the jo and about 1/3 up the jo for the top hand. Ah, the thrust I'm thinking of is toma tsuki...The hands are about 1 to 2 fists apart at the end of the thrust.

Best,
Ron

[Brian Owens]

The only technique I can ome up with is controlling your opponent's weapon. Or are there others?

Too many to name.

In our style, we have many techniques that involve throwing, pinning, trapping, and otherwise controling both armed and unarmed opponents. Thus the wide variety of grips.

Archimedes, right? ;-)

Yep. (I think.)

I think most of the good aiki-jo I've seen divides the jo into 3rds.

Yeah, a good number of our waza used grips of 1/3rd the length, and a few even went to 2/3rds.

As always, of course, there are exceptions to the "Rule of Thirds."

[Steve Luis]

Yes, based on my experience studying with Chiba and Kanai Sensei, as well as with students of Saito Sensei, I'd have to agree there aren't many strict rules about how to hold the jo except for the basic techniques.

[Brently Keen]

Ok, here's my 2 cents worth on this. I think several people have touched on what I think is the key, but let me throw in a few other thoughts if I may.

Clearly it depends on what you're trying to do, are you trying to strike, thrust, sweep, takedown or throw? In aikido jo work there are all these types of techniques are there not?

I personally believe that aikido's jo derives as much, if not more from Daito-ryu bo/jo waza than from juken-jutsu or Hozoin-ryu sojutsu (as recently speculated by Ellis Amdur in his fine series of blogs over at AJ).

Much is often made about the drastic differences between koryu jojutsu (like SMR) and aikido jo. If I may speculate a little: A premise that I have noticed among several older koryu bojutsu styles is that their bojutsu evolved from naginata-jutsu with the assumption that their naginata blade had been severed or broken from the shaft, and thus bojutsu evolved from naginata and also borrowed techniques from yari in order to keep fighting with what one's remaining staff.

Legend has it that the SMR founder was defeated by Mushashi in their first encounter and that he presumably developed jojutsu from bojutsu as a strategic means to defeat a superior swordsman. Thus the primary assumption of jojutsu was in using the staff against a sword. In such instances the advantage of the jo includes a little more reach, than the sword, but not so much as to inhibit the use of both ends effectively to strike a swordsman in his range. This accounts for the main difference I think in koryu jojutsu and aikido jo. The former is primarily concerned with armed opponents (primarily swordsmen).

I suspect Mushashi won his first duel with Gonnosuke by closing the distance negating the reach of the longer bo, and perhaps even grabbing/grappling with his opponent to win (perhaps that is why he did not kill him?). Also remember that his father was supposedly a jutte master. Gonnosuke reportedly then later devised techniques with a shorter, more nimble staff (jo) as means to defeat Mushashi the next time they met.

Now if the jo affords an advantage over a swordsman in that it can be used to strike like a sword/bokken, sweep like a naginata, and also thrust like a spear/staff, all with both ends, then it also gives up the advantage of a long sharp edge. Therefore the most strategic way to avoid being struck, swept, or thrusted at by a jo weilding opponent is to close in and grab it (in muto dori fashion) and grapple with the opponent. But unlike actual muto dori which requires extraordinary skills, jo dori is within reasonable means, since there is no sharp edge to contend with.

In Daito-ryu, I understand aiki-jo to include not only aiki defenses against a swordsman, but perhaps most notably defenses against an opponent's (armed or unarmed) attempts seize and/or grapple with the staff. Thus we have all sorts of techniques for throwing opponents who grab or attempt to seize our staff, as well as techniques for closing and seizing an opponents staff, so that we can either finish him with our own weapon, or throw and/or pin him with it. And therein, I believe lies the real "empty hand" origin of various aikido jo waza including jo nage and jo dori.

So to answer the question of this thread, the way one holds the jo in Daito-ryu (anyway) corresponds to whether you're trying to strike, sweep, thrust, takedown, throw, or pin your opponent and how you intend to do so. If you accept the notion that Ueshiba's jo was largely derived from DR, then the way he held the jo was likely influenced by the same factors (at least originally).

Now, how much Ueshiba himself and his students after him may have modified such considerations for their own training purposes - IOW using the jo not to defeat opponents, but rather as an aikido training exercise, or to supplement, enhance and/or explain empty-hand aikido is anyone's guess.

Respectfully,

Brently Keen

[Brian Owens]

...I suspect Mushashi won his first duel with Gonnosuke by closing the distance negating the reach of the longer bo, and perhaps even grabbing/grappling with his opponent to win (perhaps that is why he did not kill him?)....

My understanding is that Musashi negated the reach advantage of the bo by using the juji dome nito (not sure about the terminology; the two sword X-block); and that he said he spared Gonnosuke's life because he recognized a spark of genius that he didn't want to snuff out.

Of course, myth and reality get mixed up a lot for outsiders like me. I could be totally wrong.

[Fred27]

My understanding is that Musashi negated the reach advantage of the bo by using the juji dome nito (not sure about the terminology; the two sword X-block); and that he said he spared Gonnosuke's life because he recognized a spark of genius that he didn't want to snuff out.

Of course, myth and reality get mixed up a lot for outsiders like me. I could be totally wrong.

Well there are several versions and I doubt we will ever learn the correct one. I heard one version where Musashi never even uses his shinken or short-sword but instead uses a half-finished bokken, (or a twig depending on source), and simply overwhelmed Gonnosuke by advancing quickly into his inner circles (not sure bout terminology "inner circles") and as a "killing stroke" he hit Gonnosuke (lightly) between the eyes. Arguebly he did it to illustrate a point: "I can kill you with my no ease at all, so take your arrogance elswhere and repent" or maybe something similar.

Here is one written version I found. It's supposedly from the Niten-ki:

"When Musashi was in Edo, he met an adept named Muso Gonnosuke, who asked to fight him. Gonnosuke used a wooden sword. Musashi was in the process of making a small bow; he picked up a piece of firewood. Gonnosuke attacked him without even bowing, but he received a blow from Musashi that made him fall down. He was impressed and left."

I can tell you this though, and I hope this isn't a major Shinto Muso-ryu secret, but SMR has a few kata where the uchidachi uses two swords and the shidachi has to negate the advantage of the two-swords in various ways. Most likely those kata were not even invented in Gonnosuke's days, and as stated it's not known if the second duel even took place, but for me I find it kinda fun to imagine: "thats how Gonnosuke defeated Musashis Juji dome"

[Brian Owens]

Well there are several versions and I doubt we will ever learn the correct one. I heard one version where Musashi never even uses his shinken or short-sword but instead uses a half-finished bokken, (or a twig depending on source...

Here is one written version I found. It's supposedly from the Niten-ki:

When Musashi was in Edo, he met an adept named Muso Gonnosuke, who asked to fight him. Gonnosuke used a wooden sword. Musashi was in the process of making a small bow; he picked up a piece of firewood. Gonnosuke attacked him without even bowing, but he received a blow from Musashi that made him fall down. He was impressed and left.

Hmmm. It sounds like someone mixed up two seperate stories.

The bit about a half-finished bokken sounds like the Ganryujima account.

As for Gonnosuke using a bokken and Musashi making a "small bow" -- I wonder if that's a confusion and should be Musashi using a bokken and Gonnosuke using a bo.

I don't know. It was a long time ago, in a land far away...

[Fred27]

Hehe, two versions and many more . But its fun to read them though. Another version, (endless versions), he is using a veeeery long bokken instead of a Bo. Something like 4 shaku which would make it one of those no-dachi's.

I wouldn't mind to see the actual historical documents of the first duel, the "Kaijo Monogatari" from the 17th century, translated word-for-word on these forums so we can judge for ourselves. It's this sort of stuff that makes koryu interesting on the purely intellectual level. (for me anyways )

Hmmm. It sounds like someone mixed up two seperate stories.

The bit about a half-finished bokken sounds like the Ganryujima account.

As for Gonnosuke using a bokken and Musashi making a "small bow" -- I wonder if that's a confusion and should be Musashi using a bokken and Gonnosuke using a bo.

I don't know. It was a long time ago, in a land far away...

[Brian Owens]

...I wouldn't mind to see the actual historical documents of the first duel, the "Kaijo Monogatari" from the 17th century, translated word-for-word on these forums so we can judge for ourselves. It's this sort of stuff that makes koryu interesting on the purely intellectual level. (for me anyways )

Me too.

Sounds like a job for Hyaku!