Yoroi manufacturers?

[E.elemental]

Recently I bought a Yoroi from Tozando, I was interested in buying not an antique but a new production. The reason is easy, I dont have the money to buy an older one. Now I have found some other stores that sell armours as well, below is a link to swordstore.

Well my question is this, even though I am pleased with my Yoroi I cant help feeling that it seems a bit to fragile to actual wear. Are Tozandos armour generally looked upon as good, average or bad in terms of construction and quality? For about 2000 USD - 2500 USD, if I am interested in an armour to actually wear and are tough, whats the most suitable?


Swordstore: http://swordstore.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.../3armor-h.html

Tozando: http://yoroi.tozando.com/

[cuchulain]

Hmm, I have a set of yoroi on order from Tozando, which I am hoping to be able to wear. I did a fair bit of research online before opting for tozando, but I think you just have to accept that real armour made to measure in the authentic style is seriously expensive and you won't get it for under $10,000. I think you would have to be very wealthy to risk damaging it by using it for training.

I don't think there is a way to short-cut the cost of a proper set of yoroi. While there are several places you can buy yoroi online, they all look like they are more or less the same quality and are mainly for display. (I suspect there is only one or two manufacturers supplying all the online retailers.)

In addition to your links above, you can also get a wide range of yoroi from Samurai Store (www.samurai-store.com) and if you are happy to sacrifice some authenticity for practical usability for budo, an Australian Bujinkan teacher, Darren Horvath, (www.darrenhorvath.com) has had some Japanese-style armour made from modern materials and it seems to be pretty tough. Even that is expensive though, at almost US$4000.

[E.elemental]

I don't think there is a way to short-cut the cost of a proper set of yoroi. While there are several places you can buy yoroi online, they all look like they are more or less the same quality and are mainly for display. (I suspect there is only one or two manufacturers supplying all the online retailers.)

Thanks for the reply.

Yes as the saying goes, you get what you pay for. I also agree that some parts look very much alike when comparing different retailers. Thanks for the Horvath link, they look a bit to untraditional but they seem to be well built indeed. Well I dont have the 4000 USD anyway. Nice to hear you doing more research then me before ordering, and you are probarbly right. There are not so many differences between the Yoroi that you can buy online. What model from Tozando did you order? This is the one I ordered: http://yoroi.tozando.com/yoroi/8082.html Its to late know but really I should have ordered one with lesser "gold" details put on. I think it looks better just plain.

[J. L. Badgley]

Might I recommend: http://sengokudaimyo.com. A. J. Bryant's site is mostly for the re-enactor (specifically the SCA, but not solely). He's studied armour in Japan (I believe it was under the Myochin armourers) and his instructions should give you an idea of what you can do yourself. He doesn't have anything for sale (well, no armour anyway--I rather like his 'WWND -- What Would Nobunaga Do' T-Shirts), but it has some good how-to tips. Last I heard he was working on translating the information into actual hard-copy form.

BTW, I've seen and handled some of his pieces, both reconstructions from Japan and period pieces. The armour does seem relatively delicate, but I think this is because of what it is used for--it was not meant to take the kind of beating that most people nowadays want to put it through.

Furthermore, you are usually looking at armours of people that had enough money to get it repaired (and could afford to have a second armour standing by in many cases!). One way to get around this, if you are going to actually be using it regularly, is to look at using plastic instead of the traditional lacquered rawhide, with perhaps cotton or similar lacing.

Someone who has been doing pretty good budget 'plastic' user armours is here: Budget Bushido. While not as pretty as the real thing, the price puts it in the range of decent retainer grade flunky armour, and its something that you won't care so much if it gets scuffed and broken.

For more armourers for re-enactment demos or similar usage, check out Tousando, a forum specifically for Japanese re-enactment activities in the US. There are some people out there doing some pretty neat stuff, and are used to making their gear pretty rugged.

Another note: suneate. The few historic suneate I have seen are exceptionally small. A. J. Bryant commented that it is apparently common--the suneate seem too small compared to the do and the rest of the set; even for modern Japanese. It's something that I'd like to look into, as I wonder why it could be (more time in seiza, possibly cutting off blood to the legs and thus less growth than in modern times, when people sit in chairs more?).

Finally, If you are going to actually try the armour, I'd recommend a good shitagi and hakama as well to complete the ensemble. I usually find it odd to see people running around in sweats and a sweatshirt and yoroi.

[Nathan Scott]

I've moved this thread from the polearms forum to here. This seems to me to be the most appropriate forum we have for this kind of question.

Regards,

[E.elemental]

Nathan Scott: Sorry for posting in the wrong thread, of course it suits better here.

J. L. Badgley: Thanks for your interesting thoughts and links!

cuchulain: Please get back when you recieved your Yoroi and give us some feedback.

[cuchulain]

Hi all,

In response to this:

What model from Tozando did you order? This is the one I ordered: http://yoroi.tozando.com/yoroi/8082.html Its to late know but really I should have ordered one with lesser "gold" details put on. I think it looks better just plain.

When it comes to armour, cheap is a relative term, but I ordered one of the cheaper models - http://yoroi.tozando.com/yoroi/o7.html - primarily because I intend to wear and use this, and hence I expect to damage it.

With this in mind, I went for one that cost less and which I wouldn't be too upset about damaging. It's mostly black. I will let you know what it's like when it turns up. Interestingly, a friend ordered a different set from Samurai Store at the same time, so it will interesting to see if they share parts in common or are made by a totally different manufacturer.

What swung Tozando for me in the end was that it is slightly cheaper as they include free shipping and also that there was a thread on another discussion board about this topic and in it somone commented that at least two koryu used Tozando armour during embu in Japan.

[E.elemental]

I hope you will be satisfied with your buy, a bought a slightly more expensive. But really your choise would have been just as good if not better, I tend to like simpler armour better.

Quote from Tozando homepage: Tozando Yoroi Shop still follows with the tradition of Yoroi making and uses only the natural materials as iron, japan-lacquer. No plastic like other competitors may do.

Although not 100 % certain I definately think my Yoroi has some plastic parts. The dragon on the Kabuto is absolutely plastic.

[poryu]

Hi

this company is in Japan, it makes armour http://www.kozando.co.jp

I couldnt find the link but there is another company in japan called Marutake that also makes and restores armour. I think this is the company that supplied the hundredds of suits for Kurasawas movie 'Ran'

[cuchulain]

Thanks for the link Paul - Marutake is actually the supplier of the yoroi offered through www.samurai-store.com - you can view the entire catalogue online at www.yoroi.co.jp/english/english/index.html but to purchase outside Japan, you have to go through the SS link.

[cuchulain]

Fogot to add that this link hadn't yet been mentioned: http://www.toraba.com./index.html

This is the best website on the web for purchasing authentic period yoroi, but it will also give you an idea of the cost of such an exercise. The chap who runs it, Trevor, is also very accomodating in terms of queries and the like.

[Chidokan]

While in Meirin they had some antique sets which I didnt think were expensive... slightly more than what you paid, (not a lot though) which would give you a good idea of the weight. You may be interested in the 'armourers fair' at Tottori museum held once a year around the September timeframe, where enthusiastic amateur makers get together to show off their latest creations...some are over the top, some more traditional. They are also built to wear (usually to fit the maker) so if you fancy some tips on how to make your own thats the place to go!
One yoroi I had fitted to me at Himeji museum was lighter than I expected, (although it was built for someone half my size) and was surprisingly easy to move around in. The helmet does restrict your cutting though....and theres no way I would wear one with antlers etc. because of this!
I put some photos on my website for a laugh and to remind me never to get conned into wearing one ever again....

[cuchulain]

Just a quick update on these sets of armour, as I said I would post when I received mine. Firstly, I have had my set for a few weeks now, and mostly I am happy with it. I ordered it from Tozando and it was delivered faster than they told me it would be - they underpromised and over delivered, if you like.

It's fully wearable and has all the right parts, and is mostly of good quality, but there is one thing I need to say about it - tozando state that it's made from iron, and if that's true, it's the thinest iron I've ever seen. It feels more like tin or aluminium. This actually isn't a huge problem elsewhere on the armour, but it shows on the do section, which will easily buckle and deform during training. Otherwise, it's very interesting to own and play with. The kabuto is particularly well made as is the menpo. It came in a nice wooden case and included a stand to assemble it into a sitting position.

I think the best way to describe this set of yoroi is that it's display armour you can wear, rather than anything you'd actually want to fight in.

A friend ordered a similar but more expensive set from samurai-store, and sure enough they are both made by the same original manufacturer - all he got for his extra cash was some cosmetic differences in the construction - the materials were identical and both sets share many different parts in common.

[Chidokan]

Could you copy it and say, thicken up and heat treat the do etc? Just curious...

[cuchulain]

Could you copy it and say, thicken up and heat treat the do etc? Just curious...

Copy it, maybe. Trying to make a set from scratch would require a lot of patience and a lot of time. Much more than I have. However, the largest pieces are the do, so theoretically, you could construct or have made a do section modelled on the original, and then just attach the rest of that parts.

As for heat treating, well, I don't think you get just how thin this is - it's around one milimetre thick - one and a half maximum. You can deform it with your fingers, so I don't think you could do much to strengthen it.

Still, I'm overall quite happy with it. As I said earlier, the cost of it is much much lower than real armour, and you get what you pay for. Here is a good picture of the kabuto: