Shotokan - Expunged From Japanese History

[Prince Loeffler]

Hello All !

I started a thread titled “Back to the Future” in the Member’s Lounge as a fun thread. Brian Owens posted a very interesting note that got me thinking.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost...3&postcount=12

Based on my limited knowledge, as I understood that there were several Okinawan Karate masters that opposed Funakoshi from importing the island’s art of karate to mainland Japan.

Let say that some tragic circumstances such as death fell on Funakoshi before he could take the art to Japan. Would karate in Japan still exist as we know it today ? Would Masatoshi Nakayama, Hidetaka Nishiyama, Tsutomu Ohshima and many other legendary Shotokan masters even think about training in Karate ? The last question is what would karate in Japan like had history decided to changed its course ?

You thoughts ?

[Martin H]

Funakoshi was not the only karate master going to japan (Motobu quickly comes to mind). And much of karates initial spread worldwide was due to US soldiers learning small parts of it while stationed on okinawa after the war. So Karate would still be known and spread.
But Funakoshi and Shotokan was undoubtly the most successful school, So I think that karate would not be nearly as large as it is now.
Also, without Shotokan dominating the field and influence almost all styles, I think it possible that karate would resemble its okinawan roots more closely.

[Margaret Lo]

Also, without Shotokan dominating the field and influence almost all styles, I think it possible that karate would resemble its okinawan roots more closely.

Nakayama Masatoshi and his generation were credited with much of the look and training methodology of the modern JKA. He came from a family with sword background (whether kendo or a koryu I do not know) and much of the concepts and look of shotokan kata reflect the influence of sword. I think that any other style of karate, once it went to Japan, was bound to absorb Japanese influence and would have ended up looking much like shotokan does today.

M

[Prince Loeffler]

Funakoshi was not the only karate master going to japan (Motobu quickly comes to mind). And much of karates initial spread worldwide was due to US soldiers learning small parts of it while stationed on okinawa after the war. So Karate would still be known and spread.
But Funakoshi and Shotokan was undoubtly the most successful school, So I think that karate would not be nearly as large as it is now.
Also, without Shotokan dominating the field and influence almost all styles, I think it possible that karate would resemble its okinawan roots more closely.

Hi Martin ! I can't remember, but correct me if I am wrong. Didn't Sosai Oyama trained uner the shotokan system ? If this is true. What will Kyukoshin like today had Funakoshi ceased to exist ?

[Martin H]

Hi Martin ! I can't remember, but correct me if I am wrong. Didn't Sosai Oyama trained uner the shotokan system ? If this is true. What will Kyukoshin like today had Funakoshi ceased to exist ?

Yes Sosai Oyama began his karate career in shotokan, Under Funakoshi (both Gichin and Giko), and stayed there for about two years (and to his 2nd dan) before switching to Goju ryu under Nei-Chu So, and later Gogen Yamamgushi who awarded him 8th dan in the style.

So kyokushin would not exist. Atleast not as we know it today.

[Prince Loeffler]

Yes Sosai Oyama began his karate career in shotokan, Under Funakoshi (both Gichin and Giko), and stayed there for about two years (and to his 2nd dan) before switching to Goju ryu under Nei-Chu So, and later Gogen Yamamgushi who awarded him 8th dan in the style.

So kyokushin would not exist. Atleast not as we know it today.

Hmm, Perhaps the name "Kyokushin" may not exist, but Sosai might just have started and stayed in Goju Ryu, you think ? I just wondered how much of Shotokan has influenced on Sosai Oyama.

[Martin H]

Hmm, Perhaps the name "Kyokushin" may not exist, but Sosai might just have started and stayed in Goju Ryu, you think ? I just wondered how much of Shotokan has influenced on Sosai Oyama.

If he could have gotten into goju. I dont know how he got to know his new teacher Nei-Chu So, but chances are that they met trough some karate activity. So maybe he would not have come into contact with karate at all. And even with karate training, without Nei-Chu So, Oyama might just have gotten lost in criminality (he worked as gang "soldier" for a while after the war).

The same can be said of many other masters such as the founder of Wadoryu (not the part about becoming a thug ofcourse), who might just have stayed with jujutsu if not for funakoshi. So no Wadoryu. -that makes 3 of the 5 largest karate styles in the world gone.

As for how shotokan influences kyokushin. It is very noticeable in the beginning of the kyokushin training, but as time passes the training and skills grows more similar to goju. This reflects that Sosai started out in shotokan but got his advanced schooling in goju.

[Andrew S]

The Jinen Ryu would also not have come into being, at least they way we know it today.
Same would be true for Chito Ryu and some of the Korean systems would certainly be quite different.

I could postulate two opposite fates for Motobu. Either he would have flowered under his fighting ability without the elite in mainland Japanese society being influenced by Funakoshi's writings; or without Kano's patronage, karate might not have taken off to the extent it did, at the time it did, leaving Motobu known merely as some brawler from a backwater prefecture.

My personal feeling is that Mabuni would have become the dominant force behind the spread of karate.

[robertmrivers]

Without Funakoshi the great publicity Funakoshi received when he was portrayed as the fighter during Motobu's fight with the boxer would have been reversed. I agree that Mabuni also would have been a great influence as would Miyagi.

[Prince Loeffler]

I am curious, does anyone have an extensive knowledge as to who Funakoshi's famous and succesfull students are ?

[Andrew S]

I am curious, does anyone have an extensive knowledge as to who Funakoshi's famous and succesfull students are ?

That would be a question for forum member Harry Cook, author of Shotokan Karate: A Precise History.

[Prince Loeffler]

That would be a question for forum member Harry Cook, author of Shotokan Karate: A Precise History.

Good Idea Andrew ! I was wondering who else can I approached.

[Prince Loeffler]

A thought just came over, without Funakoshi would we be wearing the current Obi and Dogi ? Probably, but not sure.

[Harry Cook]

Funakoshi was the first of a number of Okinawan karate teachers. If he hadn't existed then Kanken Toyama may well have dominated the Tokyo area and his karate might be the best known version in Japan. There is no doubt that karate would have spread to mainland Japan via Mabuni, Uechi, and so on, but without the patronage that Funakoshi enjoyed from people like Jigoro Kano it may well have sunk into obscurity.
Certainly without the JKA's policy of developing professional instructors to spread their version of Shotokan around thr world karate would not be as well known internationally.
Harry Cook

[Prince Loeffler]

Funakoshi was the first of a number of Okinawan karate teachers. If he hadn't existed then Kanken Toyama may well have dominated the Tokyo area and his karate might be the best known version in Japan. There is no doubt that karate would have spread to mainland Japan via Mabuni, Uechi, and so on, but without the patronage that Funakoshi enjoyed from people like Jigoro Kano it may well have sunk into obscurity.
Certainly without the JKA's policy of developing professional instructors to spread their version of Shotokan around thr world karate would not be as well known internationally.
Harry Cook

Hello Mr. Cook,

Forgive me for resurrecting this thread, One statement above got me in a curious mode. Was Funakoshi the only Okinawan who went to Japan to promote Karate or was he simply the first to be recognized by the Goverment as the First to introduced Karate to the Japanese?