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Thread: Shotokan - Expunged From Japanese History

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Loeffler
    Hello All !

    Let say that some tragic circumstances such as death fell on Funakoshi before he could take the art to Japan. Would karate in Japan still exist as we know it today ? Would Masatoshi Nakayama, Hidetaka Nishiyama, Tsutomu Ohshima and many other legendary Shotokan masters even think about training in Karate ? The last question is what would karate in Japan like had history decided to changed its course ?

    You thoughts ?
    hello Prince san, how are you? this is your friend from Indonesia

    Back to your question. I think, if Funakoshi sensei did not bring his interpretation of Shorin-ryu into Okinawa, then Otsuka Hironori sensei will not be learning from him, and the style that I practice now, Wado-ryu, will not exist. Otsuka Hironori will go down in history as a mere banker who happened to inherit a Jujutsu art. Not as a founder of his own karate-jujutsu hybrid style.

    BTW, from Wado sources, I am told that there are different "feel" between the Karate that Funakoshi sensei taught, and the one that was propagated by Nakayama Masatoshi & the JKA gang. They are alike, but not 100% similar.
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3
    hello Prince san, how are you? this is your friend from Indonesia

    Back to your question. I think, if Funakoshi sensei did not bring his interpretation of Shorin-ryu into Okinawa, then Otsuka Hironori sensei will not be learning from him, and the style that I practice now, Wado-ryu, will not exist. Otsuka Hironori will go down in history as a mere banker who happened to inherit a Jujutsu art. Not as a founder of his own karate-jujutsu hybrid style.

    BTW, from Wado sources, I am told that there are different "feel" between the Karate that Funakoshi sensei taught, and the one that was propagated by Nakayama Masatoshi & the JKA gang. They are alike, but not 100% similar.

    Haryo San ! How's my brother from the other side of the planet. Good to see you in here. I was under the same implression about the difference of Funakoshi's Shotokan to Masatoshi's Shotokan. I have seen the slight differences , but not enough to see a huge difference.
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin H
    If he could have gotten into goju. I dont know how he got to know his new teacher Nei-Chu So, but chances are that they met trough some karate activity. So maybe he would not have come into contact with karate at all. And even with karate training, without Nei-Chu So, Oyama might just have gotten lost in criminality (he worked as gang "soldier" for a while after the war).

    The same can be said of many other masters such as the founder of Wadoryu (not the part about becoming a thug ofcourse), who might just have stayed with jujutsu if not for funakoshi. So no Wadoryu. -that makes 3 of the 5 largest karate styles in the world gone.

    As for how shotokan influences kyokushin. It is very noticeable in the beginning of the kyokushin training, but as time passes the training and skills grows more similar to goju. This reflects that Sosai started out in shotokan but got his advanced schooling in goju.
    Regarding Wado Ryu:
    Wondering, if Hironori Ohtsuka had not met Gichin Funakoshi.... I suspect that from what we know Ohtsuka's interest in Okinawan karate came not from his meeting with Gichin Funakoshi, but instead from reading about karate in the popular press. It has been said that his curiosity was sufficiently stimulated to actually consider travelling to Okinawa to find out for himself, but instead he met Gichin Funakoshi, who then undoubtedly (or unwittingly) opened the door for him to meet with Kenwa Mabuni and Choki Motobu. These latter two masters were a bigger influence on him than Master Funakoshi.

    To those who think that Wado is very similar to Shotokan, I think you are very much off beam, but then it depends what Wado you have been exposed to. There have been some off-shoots that have taken it that way.

    So, without Master Funakoshi maybe Hironori Ohtsuka would have made a pilgrimage to Okinawa, and who knows what he would have experienced there. But I think Wado would have still happened without Master Funakoshi's influence. Just my theory.

    Tim Shaw

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Shaw
    Regarding Wado Ryu:
    Wondering, if Hironori Ohtsuka had not met Gichin Funakoshi.... I suspect that from what we know Ohtsuka's interest in Okinawan karate came not from his meeting with Gichin Funakoshi, but instead from reading about karate in the popular press. It has been said that his curiosity was sufficiently stimulated to actually consider travelling to Okinawa to find out for himself, but instead he met Gichin Funakoshi, who then undoubtedly (or unwittingly) opened the door for him to meet with Kenwa Mabuni and Choki Motobu. These latter two masters were a bigger influence on him than Master Funakoshi.

    To those who think that Wado is very similar to Shotokan, I think you are very much off beam, but then it depends what Wado you have been exposed to. There have been some off-shoots that have taken it that way.

    So, without Master Funakoshi maybe Hironori Ohtsuka would have made a pilgrimage to Okinawa, and who knows what he would have experienced there. But I think Wado would have still happened without Master Funakoshi's influence. Just my theory.

    Tim Shaw
    Hi Tim.
    You're right, I think Wado would have happened one way or another.
    One thing that I think would be different, in quite a major sense, would be the Kata we practise. (That's assuming we are also training in this 'alternative' world)!
    The Kata in Wado are mainly the ones taught to Otsuka from Funakoshi, what if Otsuka had learned a different set of Kata from, say, Kenwa Mabuni. As the list of Kata known by Mabuni at that time was quite extensive would we have more in Wado now, or still 15 but a completely different 15. EG three Nai hanchi, or Bassai dai and Bassai sho?
    Obviously use of the imagination here rather than fact, but just for fun........
    Yours in Budo
    Graham Chuck

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chucky
    Hi Tim.
    You're right, I think Wado would have happened one way or another.
    One thing that I think would be different, in quite a major sense, would be the Kata we practise. (That's assuming we are also training in this 'alternative' world)!
    The Kata in Wado are mainly the ones taught to Otsuka from Funakoshi, what if Otsuka had learned a different set of Kata from, say, Kenwa Mabuni. As the list of Kata known by Mabuni at that time was quite extensive would we have more in Wado now, or still 15 but a completely different 15. EG three Nai hanchi, or Bassai dai and Bassai sho?
    Obviously use of the imagination here rather than fact, but just for fun........
    Hi Graham
    My understanding is that the kata we practice are more heavily influenced by Mabuni than Funakoshi - and there's also the influence of Choki Motobu, specifically through Naihanchi. But Ohtsuka judged the last two Naihanchi as "useless" and so was quick to dismiss them (I suspect "useless" to his purpose). I know that Ohtsuka Sensei sought further clarifications on the kata he originally learnt from master Funakoshi, and he gained this knowledge through Kenwa Mabuni, who allegedly had an "encyclopedic" knowledge of kata.

    I suspect that because Ohtsuka was carrying forward his own agenda, based on his very Japanese Budo background, he deliberately chose to (a) limit his kata to nine core kata and (b) to stay primarily within the Shuri based kata. Ohtsuka used the kata in a very different way than the way the Okinawans worked these very same kata, they became a vehicle for his ideas and the principles employed in Wado. I find it interesting to make comparisons between the orthodox Shorin Ryu versions of (for example) the Pinan katas and the Wado Pinans, there's a whole different thing happening there.

    Tim Shaw

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    Just curious guys, but what is the connection between
    Ohtsuka and Motobu? What is the evidence?

    Respectfully,
    Ray Baldonade
    Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu

    "Love many, trust few and do wrong to none". Chan Yau-man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyuck3X
    Just curious guys, but what is the connection between
    Ohtsuka and Motobu? What is the evidence?

    Respectfully,
    Hi,
    Just a quick reply (I'm on my way to the Dojo).
    Can't give you direct reference off the top of my head but Ohtsuka and Konishi both helped to sponsor Motobu in their own way.

    I believe that Motobu was interested in Koryu Jujutsu and there was a kind of two way traffic between him and Ohtsuka.

    Ohtsuka was also present when Motobu humiliated Funakoshi with the challenge to escape the grip of a Judo-ka, and Ohtsuka Sensei, when put to the challenge, being a Jujutsu person first and foremost had no trouble in dealing with the the Judo-ka.

    Tim Shaw

  8. #23
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    Thanks Tim for the info.
    I never heard of a connection but then again, I don't travel in Wado
    circles so I really do not know much about it's history.
    Ray Baldonade
    Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu

    "Love many, trust few and do wrong to none". Chan Yau-man

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