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Thread: what about love?

  1. #1
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    Default what about love?

    hello

    as far as i know one aim or necessity of zen buddhism is to lose all desire. but isn't desire (or a kind of) that thing that makes us go further ... what i want to say is: how does it match to the western style of life? is it possible to live in our society / "to go the western way" and follow zen ... and without any desire: what about love?

    i could imagine to live on my own somewhere without anything/body (ok - nearly ... surely a few persons i would miss ... in the beginning) ... only to live ... but if everybody would do this, the mankind will pass away ... and there will be no future, no development ... and where is the sense of this life? (although this question you can ask independent of the way you live i think)
    sven hebbe

    there will be nothing ...

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    Interesting points, and a good question for a religion or philosophy thread. We don't really have a Zen Buddhism forum (only Shinto). Maybe we should start one.

    The question doesn't really fit here though. This is a meditation forum, not a Buddhism forum, and so deals with only one aspect of Buddhist practice and not exclusively with that. (Yogic, Transcendental, Judeo-Christian Mystic, etc. forms of meditation could also be topics.)

    I guess for lack of a better idea on my part this place is as good as any unless/until the Meditation moderator says otherwise.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens
    The question doesn't really fit here though.
    ... this i think too, but like you wrote there's no better place (except members lounge?) ... and why posting on e-budo? ... because i'm interested in the opinions of the e-budo members and it seems that a lot of them are interested in zen too.
    sven hebbe

    there will be nothing ...

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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by sheb
    hello

    as far as i know one aim or necessity of zen buddhism is to lose all desire. but isn't desire (or a kind of) that thing that makes us go further ... what i want to say is: how does it match to the western style of life? is it possible to live in our society / "to go the western way" and follow zen ... and without any desire: what about love?

    i could imagine to live on my own somewhere without anything/body (ok - nearly ... surely a few persons i would miss ... in the beginning) ... only to live ... but if everybody would do this, the mankind will pass away ... and there will be no future, no development ... and where is the sense of this life? (although this question you can ask independent of the way you live i think)
    Okay, this might take a while, but here we go :

    #1 'The Western way', is exactly the same as the Eastern. Just take a look at the Ancient greek texts about the Stoa, Epicurus, Plato, Socrates, Aristoteles (or Aristotle for you native speakers ), Zeno, Marcus Aurelius, etc. etc.

    #2 What is meant by losing all desire is something like this : Do not allow your desires to dictate your life. Ultimately, when you let go of every desire, you will feel much more like a free person. True freedom is freedom of the heart. What you did is confuse desire with passion and love. There's no problem with any of those.

    #3 Who told you to go out on your own and live in the woods??? Buddhism strives towards a balance in the world. That balance is only attainable when we let go off desire. E.g. : money is a usefull means of currency. But it shouldn't become a goal on itself. It is nice to have a pretty looking SUV, but it shouldn't become a status symbol. It is a means of transportation, nothing more. The only thing we ought to do is follow a natural way of being. We don't have to give up on advancement. Why should we? We just have to live our lives in a mature and responsable way. Don't let your emotions dictate your existence. We are free to enjoy this life as much as we can. Work hard, be kind and humble. And most of all, since this is a Martial Arts forum : Never,NEVER, leave the Way.
    In the words of Yoda : Balance, there must be!

    Cheers, Christophe van Eysendyck.


    Regards,
    Christophe van Eysendyck.

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    I thought the idea was to be 'free' from desire...not to withdraw from experiencing it. My understanding of that is to be able to recognize, on a deep level, to be able to 'see' various thoughts, behaviours and emotions, and how these (non)things contribute to the various levels of suffering. Seeing clearly, we can work at getting to a point where we are not unknowingly driven by these forces.
    'Leaves fall.'

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    Question

    how does buddhism, and zen buddhism define desire?
    -Amir Barak

    "You get what you pay for, But I had no intention of living this way" - Adam Duritz

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    very interesting text. thanks for the link.
    Robert Gurisch

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    Is love a skillful desire, leading down the path of true Happiness?
    What is happiness?
    -Amir Barak

    "You get what you pay for, But I had no intention of living this way" - Adam Duritz

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    Semi-random musings:

    I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate desire, but it is a goal to be striven for.

    Also, if we look at desire as a cause of suffering, then it is clear that some actions are not driven by "desire" but by "right reason."

    Lust is a result of desire, but is love? I define lust as thinking more about one's self, and love as caring more about others.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens
    I define lust as thinking more about one's self, and love as caring more about others.
    I think that's what it all boils down to in the end. The more you give to others, the more you love someone or something else, the more you'll get in return. It's like in budo : No self means no resistance, no resistance means no opponent. And eventually no opponent = no struggle.

    P.s.: I don't believe we have to be completely free from every and any desire, we just have to realise what our desires are. We have to make sure we aren't guided by our desires, but by our hart & mind. In short : Don't be obsessive about things, stay in the middle. Always.

    ...or something like that ofcourse.


    Cheers, Christophe.


    Regards,
    Christophe van Eysendyck.

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    I think it is the attachment to desire...'need'...that is the issue.
    'Leaves fall.'

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    at first: thanks for the interesting posts ... i will think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Cufaol
    #1 'The Western way', is exactly the same as the Eastern.
    what i tried to describe is our stressful and fast society/time in which we live ... in which a lot of people only live for themselves ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cufaol
    #2 What is meant by losing all desire is something like this : Do not allow your desires to dictate your life.
    ... but doesn't mean this that you have to control your desires at any time? ... and that by this conflicts between your mind and your feelings develop which could destroy yourself (i hope you understand what i try to say ... my english is not very good). i think it isn't good if the mind has the control at any time ... sometimes i would like to follow only my desires (perhaps "desire" is not the right word for that what i mean - wishes?).
    sven hebbe

    there will be nothing ...

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    There's no problem with following your heart. Desires aren't the same as feelings. Desire doesn't come from the heart, it comes from a conflict in your subconsciousness/soul/whatever it is you want to call it. E.g. : You and your best friend both fall in love with someone, but your friend gets to start a realtionship with that person, and you feel jealous. Well that's what you might call desire. True feelings from the heart are great. Please do follow your heart. Just use your brains while doing so.

    You don't have to opress or surpress (whatever ) desires, just let go of them. Unfortunately, the only thing harder than establishing a connection, or holding on to something/someone is letting go of it/them...
    Believe me.

    Tschüs, Christophe.


    Regards,
    Christophe van Eysendyck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sheb
    without any desire: what about love?
    A most stimulating post.

    I think all sorts of things get attributed to "love" by less than eloquent people that are more aptly defined by another term.

    First you need to define love without using the word itself. It is really a multifaceted concept here is ny breakdown

    Compassion- as in to be emotionally concerned for the welfare of something or someone.

    Possession- to desire to have something or someone with you or close to you and regard as "yours".

    Lust- to desire sexually.

    Enjoy- to find pleasureable

    There may be more definitions but these are off the top of my head.

    Love of a person, I assume is what you mean, can take on one or more of those 4 ideas.

    In my opinion, the most destructive element is the desire to possess.

    Second is lust. Lust is a natural thing and happens whether you act on it or not. It is only destructive to society if you cannot control your urges. Personally you can satisfy yourself one way or another so there is not much in terms of harm to yourself.

    For myself, I enjoy, feel compassion for, and lust after my girlfriend but I am always cautious to avoid the thought that I possess her. To me, she is free to go at anytime, I will still feel the other things but I will not be overly upset because of loss. I never counted her among my possessions.

    Many people count their loved ones among their possessions and is why they are devastated when they lose someone (either by breaking up or by death).

    But hey, what do I know?
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

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