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  1. #1
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    Default what about love?

    hello

    as far as i know one aim or necessity of zen buddhism is to lose all desire. but isn't desire (or a kind of) that thing that makes us go further ... what i want to say is: how does it match to the western style of life? is it possible to live in our society / "to go the western way" and follow zen ... and without any desire: what about love?

    i could imagine to live on my own somewhere without anything/body (ok - nearly ... surely a few persons i would miss ... in the beginning) ... only to live ... but if everybody would do this, the mankind will pass away ... and there will be no future, no development ... and where is the sense of this life? (although this question you can ask independent of the way you live i think)
    sven hebbe

    there will be nothing ...

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    Interesting points, and a good question for a religion or philosophy thread. We don't really have a Zen Buddhism forum (only Shinto). Maybe we should start one.

    The question doesn't really fit here though. This is a meditation forum, not a Buddhism forum, and so deals with only one aspect of Buddhist practice and not exclusively with that. (Yogic, Transcendental, Judeo-Christian Mystic, etc. forms of meditation could also be topics.)

    I guess for lack of a better idea on my part this place is as good as any unless/until the Meditation moderator says otherwise.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens
    The question doesn't really fit here though.
    ... this i think too, but like you wrote there's no better place (except members lounge?) ... and why posting on e-budo? ... because i'm interested in the opinions of the e-budo members and it seems that a lot of them are interested in zen too.
    sven hebbe

    there will be nothing ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sheb
    hello

    as far as i know one aim or necessity of zen buddhism is to lose all desire. but isn't desire (or a kind of) that thing that makes us go further ... what i want to say is: how does it match to the western style of life? is it possible to live in our society / "to go the western way" and follow zen ... and without any desire: what about love?

    i could imagine to live on my own somewhere without anything/body (ok - nearly ... surely a few persons i would miss ... in the beginning) ... only to live ... but if everybody would do this, the mankind will pass away ... and there will be no future, no development ... and where is the sense of this life? (although this question you can ask independent of the way you live i think)
    Okay, this might take a while, but here we go :

    #1 'The Western way', is exactly the same as the Eastern. Just take a look at the Ancient greek texts about the Stoa, Epicurus, Plato, Socrates, Aristoteles (or Aristotle for you native speakers ), Zeno, Marcus Aurelius, etc. etc.

    #2 What is meant by losing all desire is something like this : Do not allow your desires to dictate your life. Ultimately, when you let go of every desire, you will feel much more like a free person. True freedom is freedom of the heart. What you did is confuse desire with passion and love. There's no problem with any of those.

    #3 Who told you to go out on your own and live in the woods??? Buddhism strives towards a balance in the world. That balance is only attainable when we let go off desire. E.g. : money is a usefull means of currency. But it shouldn't become a goal on itself. It is nice to have a pretty looking SUV, but it shouldn't become a status symbol. It is a means of transportation, nothing more. The only thing we ought to do is follow a natural way of being. We don't have to give up on advancement. Why should we? We just have to live our lives in a mature and responsable way. Don't let your emotions dictate your existence. We are free to enjoy this life as much as we can. Work hard, be kind and humble. And most of all, since this is a Martial Arts forum : Never,NEVER, leave the Way.
    In the words of Yoda : Balance, there must be!

    Cheers, Christophe van Eysendyck.


    Regards,
    Christophe van Eysendyck.

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    at first: thanks for the interesting posts ... i will think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Cufaol
    #1 'The Western way', is exactly the same as the Eastern.
    what i tried to describe is our stressful and fast society/time in which we live ... in which a lot of people only live for themselves ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cufaol
    #2 What is meant by losing all desire is something like this : Do not allow your desires to dictate your life.
    ... but doesn't mean this that you have to control your desires at any time? ... and that by this conflicts between your mind and your feelings develop which could destroy yourself (i hope you understand what i try to say ... my english is not very good). i think it isn't good if the mind has the control at any time ... sometimes i would like to follow only my desires (perhaps "desire" is not the right word for that what i mean - wishes?).
    sven hebbe

    there will be nothing ...

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    There's no problem with following your heart. Desires aren't the same as feelings. Desire doesn't come from the heart, it comes from a conflict in your subconsciousness/soul/whatever it is you want to call it. E.g. : You and your best friend both fall in love with someone, but your friend gets to start a realtionship with that person, and you feel jealous. Well that's what you might call desire. True feelings from the heart are great. Please do follow your heart. Just use your brains while doing so.

    You don't have to opress or surpress (whatever ) desires, just let go of them. Unfortunately, the only thing harder than establishing a connection, or holding on to something/someone is letting go of it/them...
    Believe me.

    Tschüs, Christophe.


    Regards,
    Christophe van Eysendyck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cufaol
    #2 What is meant by losing all desire is something like this : Do not allow your desires to dictate your life. Ultimately, when you let go of every desire, you will feel much more like a free person. True freedom is freedom of the heart. What you did is confuse desire with passion and love. There's no problem with any of those.
    lol this is where I seem to see it as confusing - isn't wanting to lose desire a desire in an of itself?

    But actually I was told by a Buddhist Zen does not follow conventional logic and in fact part of Zen is escape from conventional logic. For example "not thinking" without "thinking about not thinking" is possible with training, so I guess it's a question that must be answered by intuition rather than logic.
    e-budo is anti-budo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowriderx52
    lol this is where I seem to see it as confusing - isn't wanting to lose desire a desire in an of itself?
    Well, I imagine there are some subtle nuances that don't make the translation.

    But it's a process. You don't start off right off the bat without desiring anything. First you give up ambition and materialism. Then you work to keep your desires from affecting your actions. Eventually that becomes habit and you just end up living in the moment. What happened just before doesn't matter. What happens next doesn't matter.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, þonne he æt guðe gengan þenceð longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearað. - The Beowulf Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Reyer
    Well, I imagine there are some subtle nuances that don't make the translation.

    But it's a process. You don't start off right off the bat without desiring anything. First you give up ambition and materialism. Then you work to keep your desires from affecting your actions. Eventually that becomes habit and you just end up living in the moment. What happened just before doesn't matter. What happens next doesn't matter.
    Thank you for the insight.

    But sometimes I feel like ambition gives me strength to move even in hard times. What should be my new source of spirit?
    e-budo is anti-budo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowriderx52
    Thank you for the insight.

    But sometimes I feel like ambition gives me strength to move even in hard times. What should be my new source of spirit?
    "Þæs ofereode, þisses swá mæg."

    Or in the modern vernacular, "This, too, shall pass."
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, þonne he æt guðe gengan þenceð longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearað. - The Beowulf Poet

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    I thought the idea was to be 'free' from desire...not to withdraw from experiencing it. My understanding of that is to be able to recognize, on a deep level, to be able to 'see' various thoughts, behaviours and emotions, and how these (non)things contribute to the various levels of suffering. Seeing clearly, we can work at getting to a point where we are not unknowingly driven by these forces.
    'Leaves fall.'

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    Question

    how does buddhism, and zen buddhism define desire?
    -Amir Barak

    "You get what you pay for, But I had no intention of living this way" - Adam Duritz

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    very interesting text. thanks for the link.
    Robert Gurisch

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    Is love a skillful desire, leading down the path of true Happiness?
    What is happiness?
    -Amir Barak

    "You get what you pay for, But I had no intention of living this way" - Adam Duritz

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