Knife disarm effectiveness

[pcnorton]

Getting into it on another board. One guy is claiming some judo/aikido guys could routinely empty handed disarm an experineced knife handler...without getting cut.

What has been your experience? Anyone try it with rubber knives and someone that just doesn't do a choreographed attack.

a former teacher related that Chiba sensei said you will be cut. And not easy. and something to the effect as long as the other guy dies befor you.

I have attacked a 3rd dan when i was 5th kyu and cut the crap out of him. (at his request)

I make no bones about it, empty hand against a knife is a low percentage win for you. Better off filling that hand or increasing distance rapidly.



Paul

[Dave Humm]

I can't speak for other people's expertises however; having spent a number of years as a Prison Officer I've been faced with both improvised sharps of various types (known as shanks) inc. razor blades etc and knives ranging from a blade of about an inch long up to a kitchen carving knife. Apart from when there's been several other officers assisting in the restraint, I've been cut several times when having to deal with a situation by myself (until assistance arrives). Thankfully the injuries have been fairly minor although one wound to my left bicep penetrated to the bone. I've also been stabbed with a knitting needle

I'm of the opinion that surviving an assault which involves a blade or sharp implement requires skill and a great deal of luck. One trains not to get cut but the reality IMO is often different. Better to get cut in the process of disarming your assailant than be fatally wounded under other circumstances.

[edit] I would also add that the circumstances of the attack greatly influence the chances of an injury free defence, I've trained with a marker pen and often managed not to be left with ink on me however, in honesty the "training" was orthodox aikido, I've never been attacked in this way whilst at work, and granted I've never been a victim of a surprise assault either, luckily I've always been face to face with my 'soon to be introduced to the floor' inmate.

Regards

[Tim Mailloux]

Getting into it on another board. One guy is claiming some judo/aikido guys could routinely empty handed disarm an experineced knife handler...without getting cut.

What has been your experience? Anyone try it with rubber knives and someone that just doesn't do a choreographed attack.

a former teacher related that Chiba sensei said you will be cut. And not easy. and something to the effect as long as the other guy dies befor you.

I have attacked a 3rd dan when i was 5th kyu and cut the crap out of him. (at his request)

I make no bones about it, empty hand against a knife is a low percentage win for you. Better off filling that hand or increasing distance rapidly.



Paul

Paul,
I belive Chiba sensei qoute was along the lines of "if you get attacked with a knife, make sure you kill them quick and get to the hospital before you bleed to death. Becuase you are going to get cut....." I also rember a story of Chiba sensei getting into a scuffle with a French Ganster in Paris right after he left Hombu dojo on his way to England. He walked away inmuch beter condition of the two men, but he was lightly cut when the man pulled a knife in the middle of the scuffle.

Wasn't it during your shodan test that Tom G. took you to school while doing your tanto-dori portion of the test? I remember at one time seeing him cut you six or seven times in a flurry of various reverse grip attackes before you knew what was going on. Then again he has done that to all of us at one time or another.

I am ever in a position when someone pulls a knife on me I am running if I can. If my wife is there I will try to find anything I can use (rock on the ground, anything not nailed down I can throw, furniture) to hold that person at bay until she has time to run to safety. When she is safe I am running the fastest 100m dash in history.

Tim

[pcnorton]

Tim,

Ton cut the crap out of me. But it really is relevant as I had/have no amazing aikido skills. And tom is tom.

Now when I cut up 3rd dan at Westside, now thats a different story. ST Onge was training with the guy in question. I said no one attacks like that and you will get cut. He was miffed and told Marc to give me the knife. So onto the mat I went, reverse grip on the knife.(you know how i am, I need to see to believe) I had watched Keating and Worden tapes. No classes...Just went with what I had seen on the tapes and 3rd dan didn't do well at all. In fact when it dawned on me that he was getting pissed I made an aikido training attack..you know 110% commitment to a straight in thrust. I wanted to give him a way to save face and not get any more pissed at me. To my shock it went through and I was looking at my tanto planted in his chest. He looked down and to the mat we went. I just held on for dear life. Thats when Lorraine talked to us about knife attack realities. St.

My point is that its maybe a 50/50 with amazing skill and goes down from there.


Paul

[Black and Blue]

Hi Tim,
Many years ago my wife(first) and I were comining home from the officers club at the Quantico Marine base in Va.We walked into our living room which was blacked out. From behind a shoji screen a burgler popped out with a large butcher knife. I grabbed him and for a moment I had him. Now from a mental aspect it was 3 am and I was in a very mellow, pleasant mood,while this person who outweighted me by 50 lbs was PCPd out and REALLY Crazed.I recognized him as a disgruntled employee I fired a few months before.In the one tenth of a second I blinked and he broke free and stuck me 3 and 1/2 inches deep behind my right ear. I grabbed the wound which was a severed artery and got it again in the right side. I punched the guy really hard while the blood was squirting like a fire hose and threw him across the room ripping an army jacket right off him. I took the knife away while my hysterical wife called the police.I held him down and kept pressure on the injury till the cops got there. I was quite faint and I lost over 6 pints of blood.I was glad I took the hit and got him before he got my wife. I have a 7 inch scar down the side of my neck and face where they had to go up and get the artery to tie it together and a scar on my right rib cage. I am reminded of this everytime I look in a mirrior. I keep telling myself it wont ever happen again....Hopefully. No matter how hard you practice these types of waza, you never know how you will react. Not that I think its nesscessary, but how many self-defence instructors or black belts have ever been in a fight in ther life? Nevermind with a blade..... but here thay are teaching you to protect your self and taking your money for it.
Phil Scudieri

[Simon Ford-Powell]

Hi Tim,
Many years ago my wife(first) and I were comining home from the officers club at the Quantico Marine base in Va.We walked into our living room which was blacked out. From behind a shoji screen a burgler popped out with a large butcher knife. I grabbed him and for a moment I had him. Now from a mental aspect it was 3 am and I was in a very mellow, pleasant mood,while this person who outweighted me by 50 lbs was PCPd out and REALLY Crazed.I recognized him as a disgruntled employee I fired a few months before.In the one tenth of a second I blinked and he broke free and stuck me 3 and 1/2 inches deep behind my right ear. I grabbed the wound which was a severed artery and got it again in the right side. I punched the guy really hard while the blood was squirting like a fire hose and threw him across the room ripping an army jacket right off him. I took the knife away while my hysterical wife called the police.I held him down and kept pressure on the injury till the cops got there. I was quite faint and I lost over 6 pints of blood.I was glad I took the hit and got him before he got my wife. I have a 7 inch scar down the side of my neck and face where they had to go up and get the artery to tie it together and a scar on my right rib cage. I am reminded of this everytime I look in a mirrior. I keep telling myself it wont ever happen again....Hopefully. No matter how hard you practice these types of waza, you never know how you will react. Not that I think its nesscessary, but how many self-defence instructors or black belts have ever been in a fight in ther life? Nevermind with a blade..... but here thay are teaching you to protect your self and taking your money for it.
Phil Scudieri

Thankyou for that awful story.

It should be posted to every martial arts forum and be included in every book anybody ever writes about the martial arts , or self-defence.

reality sucks.

[Jock Armstrong]

tanto dori [much the same as tachi dori] was designed as a last resort- better than just dying. Filipino arts use a lot of disarming tech but they too are considered to be the things you do rather than just stand there and take it.
The difference in training to knife defence is that most aikido practitioners defend against a small number of attacks done in a very rigid manner, while the Filipinos defend against the same attacks that they teach- fluid, fast, multiple slashes and short thrusts. The actual defensive techniques don't differ much, perhaps more atemi in the Filipino styles but fundamentally they are similar.
One reason for the lack of reality in knife defence in most aikido situations is the style of tanto tech itself. Most of the old tanto tech are designed to attack weak points in armour- single thrusts to exposed areas such as the armpit ir throat. Another point is that aikidoka are not trained in the use of a knife so their attacks tend to be more awkward or at least less focussed. The same could probably be said of many of the punch/ kick attack defences practiced. On the whole, they are performed against people who can't attack very well. Nothing wrong with the defence tech itself- they just need to ratchet up the gears a notch or two if they want to have any real hope of performing them for real. The whole situation in the dojo can lead people to believe that they are in fact better at something than they really are.

In conclusion- you will most probably get cut. Your training hopefully will minimise the injuries sustained and get you out alive. You have to be alive to appreciate your complications! To maximise the benefit of your training, get buddies who do kick /punch or knife work as part of their syllabus and train with them. Apply your techniques to their level of skill. It will lift your own considerably

[Rob Gassin]

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/EDGED%20WEAPON%20TACTICS%20AND%20COUNTER%20TACTICS.doc

Check out this site. It highlights some of the facts re. knife attacks (I hope these facts are accurate) and discusses defence.

Very scarry!

[Black and Blue]

Hi Simon,
I did learn an important lesson out this and I feel it has made me a better instructor. "That which does not kill, you only makes you stronger"

Phil Scudieri

[Amir]

Getting into it on another board. One guy is claiming some judo/aikido guys could routinely empty handed disarm an experienced knife handler...without getting cut.

So, another guy says idiotic things. Why should you listen to him ?

Aikido is a great M.A. with regard to knife defense. Personally, I doubt Aikido is inferior to any other M.A. in this regard.
But, a knife is a huge "force multiplier". Just like when faced with a larger and stronger attacker, you must be better them him, when faced with a knife, the difference of actual levels should be much larger. This is true regardless of the M.A. you practice.

One can also see this rather easily during training, take a young eager beginner and ask him to attack you with some practice knife. When you succeed too often, take the knife and show him he is playing. Ask him to use more slashes rather then stabs, exchange hands if he can, and try to cut you in any way he can. Then you will find your success rate decreases significantly. From my experience, if the attacker is slightly more skilled (around self level) this is even true in half-speed.


Amir

[SeiserL]

I came from an FMA background into Aikido.

A while back we did an article for Black Belt Magazine on Aikido against the 5-angles of a knife attack.

I still place my bet on the blade.

[pcnorton]

So, another guy says idiotic things. Why should you listen to him ?

Aikido is a great M.A. with regard to knife defense. Personally, I doubt Aikido is inferior to any other M.A. in this regard.
But, a knife is a huge "force multiplier". Just like when faced with a larger and stronger attacker, you must be better them him, when faced with a knife, the difference of actual levels should be much larger. This is true regardless of the M.A. you practice.

One can also see this rather easily during training, take a young eager beginner and ask him to attack you with some practice knife. When you succeed too often, take the knife and show him he is playing. Ask him to use more slashes rather then stabs, exchange hands if he can, and try to cut you in any way he can. Then you will find your success rate decreases significantly. From my experience, if the attacker is slightly more skilled (around self level) this is even true in half-speed.


Amir

Not listening to him, just checking to make sure that my view/experience isn't the one thats off base.

Paul

[kimiwane]

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/EDGED%20WEAPON%20TACTICS%20AND%20COUNTER%20TACTICS.doc

Check out this site. It highlights some of the facts re. knife attacks (I hope these facts are accurate) and discusses defence.

Very scarry!

Thanks for that link, Rob. I found this paragraph noteworthy:

"Most assumed the defender knew that the attacker possessed an edged weapon. ( what good is this assumption when we know that the majority of attacks with knives the defender did not know the attacker had a knife)"

This is from the author's testing of 85 police officers in an attack scenario. Only 3 of the 85 saw the knife before the attacker used it.

Only 3 of 85 trained officers saw the knife.

Well, call me Mr. Scaredy, but WHENEVER anyone approaches me "out of the ordinary," bumming money or whatever, just approaching "to ask me something" of WHATEVER:::::

I ALWAYS assume they have a weapon. I ALWAYS look for it and I ALWAYS note what both of their hands are doing.

Another point in that article was that once officers recognized that the guy had a knife, they tended to block the first attack and then started flailing away on the guy with elbows and knees, but DID NOT ATTEMPT TO CONTROL THE KNIFE. And they were "fatally" stabbed in the exercise.

I always teach people "Don't fight the man! Get the weapon!"

Good advice? I'm still living and I've never been attacked with a knife. It's probably only because God still wants me down here for whatever reason.

Best wishes.