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Thread: Muto dori.......Really???????

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    Default Muto dori.......Really???????

    Just curious.....and nothing better to do at present.
    How many people out there who practice a sword art they would consider to be effective, or atleast reasonably so, also practice mutodori???? And why?
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

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    I'd hate to have to try it.

    but if you reference this thread, on bringing a knife to a gunfight, sometimes 'scream and leap' beats standing around waiting to die.

    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...=salvador+iraq

    mew
    Margaret Welsh

    "It's more fun when they do it to themselves." Barbara Hambly

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    I have to agree - last ditch effort to make it out alive- or at least take the sunafabitch with you. The worst thing is that people who aren't that good tend to cut short- which makes it even harder to get inside the sword arc.... damn! Ain't nuthin' easy??? Evasion sems the answer- evade to another grid square....
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

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    Hi All,
    thanks for the thoughts.
    I agree with the scream and leap theory in that, you're right about not just standing there and waiting to die. Also, if your screaming, you may not hear your body opening up, which would be good!
    I was viewing a website posted in the Jujutsu section on ebudo in which they practice muto dori. For the life of me, I can't work out why anyone thinks they could disarm a swordsman without the use of a better weapon.Do people really think swordsmen are that stupid that they're going to cut just once and stand there waiting for the other guy to take their sword away?
    And, why is it that muto dori is always practiced against a straight attack of some sort?

    Any thoughts, rants, venting accepted.
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

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    I guess I'd try it if it were life and death but I've no doubts it would be extremely improbable to succeed.

    I prefer being the other end of the sword.
    Mat Rous

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    I agree that against a skilled swordsman your chances of prevailing aren't great. But I would say there are alot of , lets say, less than skilled swordsmen out there. Either way I would rather have some training and practice in dealing with the situation than try and figure it out at the moment of attack. I think it is best to be prepared for anything. I find the idea that muto dori is inefective a bit myopic. Of course i agree no one cuts once and waits for the technique to be done. Good muto dori practice should involve multiple cuts and random attacks. Do you feel the same way about unarmed knife defense?

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    I think against an idiot with a knife who really has no idea how to use it, you have a better than average chance of defending yourself. Against a person trained in the use of the knife....not much chance at all!
    There is also a 3 foot reach difference in dealing with a swordsman as opposed to dealing with someone wielding a knife.

    I don't see the sense in practicing something which firstly, you will be extremely unlikely to encounter and secondly, something which you would most likely not be able to pull off.
    Makes more sense to me to spen your time practicing something useful.
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

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    You practice sword, and you are extreamly unlikely to encounter a swordfight, so are you spending your time practicing something useful? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just don't really see your logic here.

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    John,
    I was waiting for/expecting it. I practice a sword art because I enjoy it. I enjoy using the weapon and I enjoy being around like minded people.
    I have been practicing Jujutsu for 20 years and I practice that mainly for self defense reasons (as well as the above, but primarily self defense).
    I would rather spend my time working on 'slightly' probable knife defense scenarios and defenses against such things as, in our case cricket bats, screwdrivers and bottles than waste my time on most likely impossible muto dori.
    Tell me something, do you know anyone who you think would be able to get your sword from you (them being unarmed)?
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

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    One more thing. Muto dori teaches things that are extreamly useful. Things like entering, closing the distance while being under realistic and fast attack and remaining calm. Timing, moving at the moment the swordsman has comited to his strike and can't retract. I'ts all about taking control of the fight and the distance. Good muto dori should not be defensive. I find it odd that there are many ryu-ha that have some kind of sword disarm and you think they are all wasting their time? Are all these ryu-ha wrong?

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    John

    While my initial reaction to mutodori is not positive, you make a good point. I have seen our patron iai/jo sensei make the rest of us look stupid at times when we are wielding a sword and he is not. Undouptedly that is because he understands the sword better than most.

    There is I think the possibility that mutodori can be taught correctly and reasonably effectively. The problem is that some mutodori is dreamed up and taught by people who are utterly clueless about the sword and have no concept of the speed and distance differences that exist between armed and unarmed combat. I laugh and walk away when I tell people that I do iai then to be told that they do aikido/jujutsu/karate and have learned to disarm a swordsman. Sorry to be disrespectful to aiki people but even having watched such aikido giants as Tomita sensei do kendori, I am not convinced.

    My own sensei relates a story of when he was invited to teach some iai to the advanced students of a karate club in our area. He knew that they learned sword catching (!!!) and decided to put them straight. He started off the lesson by saying something along the lines of, right let's be clear about sword catching - who can cut this? He then delivered one of his typical cuts and there was a stunned silence. "Right, now we've got that out of the way let's practise iai."

    Therefore my own conclusive opinion is that mutodori could/might be a legitimate art but I have never seen it demonstrated convincingly by anyone other than one who understands and practises the sword.
    Andy Watson

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    Andy,
    I agree, I have also seen alot bad stuff out there. You are right not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

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    Nice post Andy.
    And on your last statement,

    Therefore my own conclusive opinion is that mutodori could/might be a legitimate art but I have never seen it demonstrated convincingly by anyone other than one who understands and practises the sword.
    anyone who understands and practises the sword arts should realise that it is highly improbable if not impossible.

    John,
    Timing, moving at the moment the swordsman has comited to his strike and can't retract
    What if the swordsman doesn't commit to an attack and always gives himself the option to change his movement.
    If a swordsman is competent, you should not be able to enter in on him.

    I find it odd that there are many ryu-ha that have some kind of sword disarm and you think they are all wasting their time? Are all these ryu-ha wrong?
    In a word, yes!
    Opinionated I know, but as a practitioner on both ends of the sword I believe it to be true.
    You still haven't answered my original question.
    do you know anyone who you think would be able to get your sword from you (them being unarmed)?
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

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    I haven't seen any example of a technique where the swordsman wasn't "Offering" his hands first.

    This doesn't happen. If you can show some me sone pictures which refute this that would be interesting.
    Mat Rous

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    If you have not seen an unarmed or "lesser" armed defendant disarm and defeat a sword-wielding attacker, it is because you haven't seen an adequately proficient demonstration. I can think off the top of my head two sensei that I seriously doubt most folks on this board could touch, even with a sword and said sensei unarmed. (And no, I do not want to devolve into a "my sensei can beat up your sensei" argument.)
    Like all force multipliers, a sword is more effective in certain ways, and less in others. For example, the moment after a cut, the blade usually needs to be turned in order to re-engage, unless you want to smack your enemy with the mune or shinogi. A basic avoidance and close technique is to come inside and to the side of the sword; for example as in various tessen, jutte, tanken, and aikido techniques. Also at the end of the cut, the swordsman's hands and forearms are nicely exposed.
    Practical? Useful? As mentioned before, I don't plan on being in any sword fights anytime soon, so no, certainly not. Easy? Nope. Requires impeccable maai among other things.
    But by the same argument, do you actually think you know more than 300+ years of techniques? Thanks, but I'll trust that my sensei's sensei's sensei's sensei's ... sensei knew what he was talking about.
    In closing, I am reminded that Niina-gosoke often says "there is only one technique in Mugai". Part of what he means is: we practice at least 20 different solo kata, 15 kumitachi, shizan, and various other weapons, and they're all basically the same. Sword, jo, tessen, unarmed, it's all basically the same.

    Regards,
    r e n

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    Here is a good discussion on Aikiweb about muto no jutsu. There are some good translations from Heiho Kadensho, as provided by Jun Akiyama.

    http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...highlight=muto
    無雙直傳英信流・日本古武道居合研究会 - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu ・ Nihon Kobudo Iai Kenkyukai
    東京蘆洲会 - Tokyo Roshukai

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    I think you could train in Muto Dori for several reasons but that primary among them would be the need to train in something that teaches you entry, and how best to avoid the object coming at you. There are several ways to do this in training but using something as hard to dodge as a sword would make for some very good training.
    We train with pet bottles with grips for fun at the end of class and it is impossible against anyone but the very newest students to remove the blade without getting hit..However, the lessons that it teaches are rather invaluable and I would suggest that that is enough of a reason for many ryuha to have left some form of muto dori in their curricula.
    For us, although there is not a special unarmed section in training, the need to close rapidly with the aite and maintain control of his body as you do so is fundamental to the majority of what we do.. It doesn't matter what weapons he is using, you do still need to be able to avoid them as much as is possible and get into an advantageous position.
    As was perhaps best said in Dodgeball,
    Patches: "If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball."
    I think that might sum up what I think about it all really.
    Regards.
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

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    This horse got a thorough and fatal thumping a few years ago, right here on e-budo.

    Aiki Kogeki/Emonodori.

    Enjoy.
    Kent Enfield
    Kentokuseisei

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    If you are studying bujutsu that includes swords, it seems to me that you should understand all the weaknesses and strengths of the weapon. Mutodori exploits the weakness of close range and the need for the swordsman to bridge a gap. Swords have inertia, as does the body wielding it. There are timings and positions that cannot be recovered from in combat, particularly with a 2.5-3lb. piece of steel that is 27-30 inches long or more.

    That being said, even when I am against my wife in a free form mutodori, my chances of success tend to be very low. Neither of us are exceptional or even very skilled at iaijutsu at this point. We use bokuto, of course. Part of it is that she knows I am "trying to get her." So she is very defensive in her commitments and vice versa. Also, we are trying to avoid maiming one another, both in cutting and in defense. We use lighter bokuto, so the cuts can be very fast, faster than if we used heavier bokuto.

    I think in many circumstances over confidence would be present on the part of the swordsman. It is a slim chance to capitalize on it, but better than just giving up.

    This is also why shuriken and other distractors were conceived and implemented. You should never be unarmed. It is a dangerous world out there.
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

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    Default Done before

    I know this topic has been discussed before but I was reading a jujutsu school's posting on here and thought I'd ask the question. They list muto dori in their curriculum.
    Our system of jujutsu used to incorporate muto dori but once my teacher saw a competent swordsman in action, he removed it from our system.
    We practice defences against long weapons such as a jo which can be likened to more modern weapons such as a baseball/cricket bat. These same techniques could, if necessary be used in a last ditch, one-off attempt to defend yourself against a sword but it would have to be exactly that. All other avenues have been exhausted and if you don't do something you will certainly die.
    Better to die trying! which I'm sure everyone agree's with.
    I agree that against a swordsman with a sheathed sword you may have some semblance of a chance....still not much.
    I witnessed a 'koryu' system in action on the weekend. If that swordsmanship is anything to go by, I guess there is a better chance of defending yourself!
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

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    Howard,
    A swordsman can make non-commited strikes all he wants but in order to hit someone he has to make that commitment and that is when the defender can make his move. Like you said the sword gives a three foot advantage, But that means it also brings him within three feet.

    As far as the answer to your question. I don't know. I think it would be vain to say it could never happen. Saru mo ki kara ochiru.

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    I have observed systems that opreate from both sides of the sharp pointy bit. As an interesting aside two old koryu styles (names long forgoten... i'm v.sorry but it was yearrrrrs ago!) where the swordsmans cut is avioded and closed in on... at which point he releases one hand from his sword and draws his wakasashi from his obi and guts the would-be attacker (I also saw another varient where first he strikes to the do with the tsuka before drawing).... also I've seen the reverse where the attacker closes in and draws the swordsmans wakasashi against him before he can change his tac...

    Just my ten pence worth...

    Don't mind me
    Last edited by Sam(urai); 22nd May 2006 at 15:00.
    Sam Oram

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Lovato
    A swordsman can make non-commited strikes all he wants but in order to hit someone he has to make that commitment and that is when the defender can make his move.
    Not anywhere near the level of commitment that is demonstrated in any of the tachidori/mutodori demonstrations I've seen. Also, stepping inside a cut that is not straight up and down (not to mention glacially slow as are most of the demos) is a tad more difficult.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Of course it would be silly to practice against only one type of cut or slow cuts.

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    I have noticed that no one has mentioned the most compelling reason for practicing muto dori. That being that it is part of your ryu's curriculum, and sensei said "today we work on muto dori!" That is why I have done so in the past, and will in the future. Actual efficacy in use doesn't really enter into it, although it makes for interesting discussion.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    Sorry Paul,


    That being that it is part of your ryu's curriculum, and sensei said "today we work on muto dori!"
    For me, that would mean a change of arts/schools/teacher!
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

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    Hi all,

    Reading this post a question came to mind. How many of us are not hobbyists? Or put another way, how many of us deal on a regular basis with the kind of violence directed against us which put our lives in danger?

    I am not I am a civilian, snug with a cup of coffee thinking about my jujutsuclass this evening.

    I do not think we have the mindset of Bushi of old who may have been abel to do mutodori (as a last ditchtechnique) against a drawn blade. We are weekendwarriors and against a competent swordsman with a drawn sword we are going to do mutodori? Noop we are going to die trying.

    The only reasonable chance to do mutodori against a sword is when it is still in the scabbard. I really think that this should be stressed by people who "teach" mutodori.

    The best jujutsuman of the world against a mediocre swordsman? My bet would be on the swordsman.

    best,

    Johan Smits

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    A sword is a weapon same as any other- it's only as dangerous as the man wielding it is skillful. Nobody has claimed that tachidori/mutodori would be easy. That some groups do a unrealistic kind of muto dori is a good point, however to say that it is absolutely impossible is like saying that a man armed with a handgun is invincible. Half the stuff I've seen taught as knife or pistol disarms/recovery are on the same level as the crappy tachidori- it comes back to people not really understanding what is involved, with the weapon or the unarmed part. Would you want to try it? No. Would you be guaranteed to succeed? No. Would you just kneel down, expose your neck and wait? For my part, no.
    People have made their points well here but I don't think anyone is going to "convert" the other to their way of thinking. Maybe we've run our course.
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

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    Within the book "Budo Hidensho" which was written/compiled in 1968.

    Loosely translated from the section, "The truths regarding 'muto no jutsu'":

    "Regarding the "Muto no jutsu" (the techniques/tactics of "muto"), it does not have to mean that we must always take away the opponent's sword. Also, it is not showing that one can take away the opponent's sword and make it into an achievement. It is the technique of not being cut when you do not have a sword yourself. The spirit of trying to take away the sword is not essential.

    Some commentary on the text states (translated),

    "The "Muto Dori" of Yagyu Shingan ryu is rather famous, but there is no scarcity of the number of interpretations of its contents and meaning. When faced with a person who is wielding a live blade and without the benefit of armor, the "muto no jutsu" required to take away the sword is, in essence, throwing yourself into the worst possible situation yet still being able to achieve victory."

    Loosely translated from the next section, "Victory is in not getting cut":

    "One does not have to always take away a sword of a person who does not want his sword taken. In other words, an opponent with his heart set on not having his sword taken has forgotten how to cut; because he is too busy thinking about not having his sword taken, he will be unable to cut. In this situation, this is victorious for us as we are not going to get cut. Taking away the opponent's sword is not the objective; rather, we are training not to be cut when we are without a sword..."

    "The techniques of "muto" are not aimed at taking away the opponent's sword, but rather, to be able to use the available tools around you freely. If you have the ability to take away your partner's sword, then it will not matter what your partner wields. So, you may be able to face a sword-wielding opponent with just a fan and still come out victorious. This is the crux of the "muto no jutsu." If you are walking around with a bamboo cane without your sword, even if someone tries to cut you with a very long sword, you may be able to deflect with your cane, perhaps taking away your partner's sword or not as the case may be, be able to control your partner, and end up not getting cut; that is victory. Take this into consideration as the crucial meaning of the "muto no jutsu."

    Loosely translated from "The core of muto is maai":

    "The objective of "muto no jutsu" is not to take away your opponent's sword nor to cut your opponent. Take away the sword from your opponent when he has the intention of doing nothing else but cutting you, but do not have the intention of taking away the sword from the beginning.

    The primary objective of "muto no jutsu" is to take proper maai. You need to understand at which distance you can be with a sword-wielding opponent and still not be able to get cut. If you understand this distance, then you will have no fear of being cut; also, if you know that you can get cut, you can work on the tactics opposing that situation. You will not be able to use "muto no jutsu" without being in the range of having one's flesh cut. You will only be able to take away the sword if you are in a position of being cut - in other words, by getting cut, you can take away the sword."

    Loosely translated from "Enter under the handle of your opponent's sword
    ":

    "In "muto no jutsu," have the intention of using your bare hands as weapons when your partner is wielding a sword. Because a sword is long and your arms are relatively short, unless you enter into your partner's body to the point of being in danger of getting cut, this tactic will not work. However, is it really possible to take away your opponent's sword? In order to achieve that, you must enter through the distance of your opponent's blade and enter under your partner's sword handle. Of course, this may not be possible depending on the time and place, but unless you are willing to go into your partner's body, it will be impossible to take away the sword."

    The above translation raises several points for consideration when training muto-dori application. I think the opening statement from the "truths of muto no jutsu" sums up what we should be thinking and attempting to achieve.

    "...it does not have to mean that we must always take away the opponent's sword. Also, it is not showing that one can take away the opponent's sword and make it into an achievement. It is the technique of not being cut when you do not have a sword yourself. The spirit of trying to take away the sword is not essential."

    "...it is the technique of not being cut when you do not have a sword yourself."

    From a tactical stand point entering under the handle of the sword (IE when it is raised to Jodan no kamae) is the safest option however; the speed at which a sword can be raised and then brought to bear is incredible thus; one's speed and perception of when to act must also be equally incredible.

    "...Because a sword is long and your arms are relatively short, unless you enter into your partner's body to the point of being in danger of getting cut, this tactic will not work. However, is it really possible to take away your opponent's sword? In order to achieve that, you must enter through the distance of your opponent's blade and enter under your partner's sword handle."

    Regards

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    Good point Johan,
    I bounced at a 'well known' for all of the wrong reasons nightclub in Melbourne's West for around 5 years. During that time I faced all sorts of assailants brandishing all manner of weapons under all sorts of influences.
    I used Jujutsu on a weekly basis, infact I only took the job on as I saw it as the only way I could 'legally' put into practice and 'try' what I'd learnt in class.
    Happy to say, it worked very well.
    I would be kidding myself if I said MA wasn't a hobby for me, but I try to practice it as more a way of life than a past time. 20 years at six days per week, travelling all over the world makes it a 'serious' past time!
    It just really amazes me that people who practice the art of swordsmanship think they can be disarmed by an unarmed person.
    It's as bad as a demo at last years Aiki Expo where an Aikido practitioner defeated 4 swordsmen with a Jo! How ludicrous.
    I agree with the die trying theory if there is no option but, you WILL die!
    As for this topic running its course, I was hoping a few more people might contribute. This topic hasn't been discussed at length here for some time.
    Thought it might be fun!
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

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    Hello,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Armstrong
    A sword is a weapon same as any other- it's only as dangerous as the man wielding it is skillful.
    I'm not so sure about that. I've seen a good number of stupid people wielding shinken but lacking skills who still manage to be a danger to themselves and/or other people nearby. Some weapons are inherently more dangerous than others.

    Just another perspective.

    Regards,

    Ron Beaubien

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    Of course they are a danger- that's what a weapon does- it gives the idiot more capability. It doesn't mean that you should necessarily give up in the face of an armed opponent. The first course is to fight an armed opponent with a weapon of your own . If you don't have a weapon, run like hell. If you are trapped, well you gotta do something. Understanding the weapon you have to fight against is the first step- hence tachidori. My personal preference would be a double tap to the centre of the seen mass, perhaps followed [in order of preference] by judicious use of the wakizashi/tanto but you use what you have............

    BTW this theory goes for knives and anything else sharp or nasty. A half brick to the noggin can work wonders....
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

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    I agree Jock, the main problem I have with the technique is how it is instructed and/or demonstrated. I've never seen the instructor say "you are in all likelihood going to die, so here's your only hope out". I've only seen "well, all you have to do is step in here, grab this, a little spin and shazam!"
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Quote Originally Posted by gendzwil
    I agree Jock, the main problem I have with the technique is how it is instructed and/or demonstrated. I've never seen the instructor say "you are in all likelihood going to die, so here's your only hope out". I've only seen "well, all you have to do is step in here, grab this, a little spin and shazam!"
    And the same is said for lots of weapons defences. A jujutsu instructor friend-of-a-friend went to one street defence class to see what they did. There the instructor was getting his students to hold marker pens to each other's necks to see if their defence techniques were effective enough to stop them from getting cut. My FOAF had a go, held the pen to the instructors neck and just drew a line across his throat before the instructor had time to say go. At that my FOAF said f... off and walked out.

    Some of the ridiculous things we see at SENI (the UK martial arts expo) are equally stoopid with all kinds of stunts against knives going on.

    Now add a couple of feet to the sword and...hey presto.
    Andy Watson

    Minoru hodo
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    Inaho ka na

    http://www.simenergy.co.uk

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    I've heard exactly that...last ditch effort. only hope. Better than dying. I'm surprised that phrase is so unusual in relation to muto dori.

    Best,
    Ron
    Quote Originally Posted by gendzwil
    I agree Jock, the main problem I have with the technique is how it is instructed and/or demonstrated. I've never seen the instructor say "you are in all likelihood going to die, so here's your only hope out". I've only seen "well, all you have to do is step in here, grab this, a little spin and shazam!"

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    For me, that would mean a change of arts/schools/teacher!
    There is a difference in what is done in the traditional Japanese arts and what is done for "modern street effective fighting". The main difference that I have noticed is that the modern arts tend to teach "if he does this, you do this!" The traditional Japanese arts have a more holistic approach. They teach a way of reacting, without actually teaching specifics. While there are specific kata taught within all of the Japanese arts, they are not there to teach technique, but rather to instill a particular set of reactions and movements as defined by the overall outlook of the ryu. I would venture to guess that the muto dori practice of, say, the Yagyu Shinkage ryu, is more concerned with teaching principle than in teaching actual "techniques". While I can't say that this is a fact since I do not practice this art, I can say that this is the way that all of the koryu approach their teaching.

    So, I wouldn't know any where near enough about any art to question whatever sensei said I was to practice. If you really didn't trust your sensei enough to believe that he knows what he's doing, then I agree with you Howard, it would definitely be time to change instructors.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Quick
    It just really amazes me that people who practice the art of swordsmanship think they can be disarmed by an unarmed person.
    Someone like Yagyu Munenori?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Humm
    Within the book "Budo Hidensho" which was written/compiled in 1968.

    Loosely translated from the section, "The truths regarding 'muto no jutsu'":
    John Halloway

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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Quick
    It's as bad as a demo at last years Aiki Expo where an Aikido practitioner defeated 4 swordsmen with a Jo! How ludicrous.
    I don't know about the demos at Aiki Expo, but you have never seen a truly skilled jo practitioner if you think jo could not defeat sword, even multiple attackers.
    Shindomusoryu jo was developed specifically to defeat sword, and all things being equal (if such a comparison was possible) it's at least even money if not better odds for the jo.
    Such blanket statements are fairly ludicrous in and of themselves, then again I think you are not considering traditional arts in the relevant context, comparing them against 'modern street fighting', for which they were never intended, and therefore obviously will come out lacking.

    Regards,

    r e n

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    Funny thing when talking about being unarmed against a weapon, the general idea is "well thats it he's got a weapon, i've had it", well i think the simplest way to explane muto dori could be "what if he misses?"
    And whats one of the first things you learn in martial arts, get out the way!
    So you get out the way, he misses his attack, were do you go from there?
    And just because it doesnt have a sharp edge doesnt make it an inferior weapon, you wouldent try to deflect the sharp edge of a sword with a jo, but the sharp edge is only a small part of the sword itself and the person who uses it.
    Dont forget you need your arms and hands to use a sword, take away his ability to use his hands and you take away his ability to weild a sword, with a jo this is easy to show as the most obvious would be to avoid the attack and then strike his hand just below the tsuba.
    Also keep in mind you cut with a sword using the top few inches of the blade, if you are close in there is less chance of you getting cut, and as the same muto dori techniques can work against many weapons you may encounter (such as a baseball bat) the same applys, all the force is at the end of the bat, the closer in you are the less it is going to hurt.
    Its not such a ludicrous thought if you realy think about it.
    Simon Novelli
    Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

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    One thing to remember is that the blade is long but the pivot point in your hand is very small. Even a missed cut can be converted into a thrust/defensive stance by a small hand movement.

    The unarmed person has to move his body a lot more than I have to move my hand.

    Also, the styles I've seen (which is not exhaustive BTW) focus on not overcommitting the cut to leave you exposed. Obviously, a "real-life" scenario is going to be slightly different.
    Mat Rous

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