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Thread: Muto dori.......Really???????

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    Default Muto dori.......Really???????

    Just curious.....and nothing better to do at present.
    How many people out there who practice a sword art they would consider to be effective, or atleast reasonably so, also practice mutodori???? And why?
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

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    I'd hate to have to try it.

    but if you reference this thread, on bringing a knife to a gunfight, sometimes 'scream and leap' beats standing around waiting to die.

    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...=salvador+iraq

    mew
    Margaret Welsh

    "It's more fun when they do it to themselves." Barbara Hambly

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    I have to agree - last ditch effort to make it out alive- or at least take the sunafabitch with you. The worst thing is that people who aren't that good tend to cut short- which makes it even harder to get inside the sword arc.... damn! Ain't nuthin' easy??? Evasion sems the answer- evade to another grid square....
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

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    Hi All,
    thanks for the thoughts.
    I agree with the scream and leap theory in that, you're right about not just standing there and waiting to die. Also, if your screaming, you may not hear your body opening up, which would be good!
    I was viewing a website posted in the Jujutsu section on ebudo in which they practice muto dori. For the life of me, I can't work out why anyone thinks they could disarm a swordsman without the use of a better weapon.Do people really think swordsmen are that stupid that they're going to cut just once and stand there waiting for the other guy to take their sword away?
    And, why is it that muto dori is always practiced against a straight attack of some sort?

    Any thoughts, rants, venting accepted.
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

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    I guess I'd try it if it were life and death but I've no doubts it would be extremely improbable to succeed.

    I prefer being the other end of the sword.
    Mat Rous

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    I agree that against a skilled swordsman your chances of prevailing aren't great. But I would say there are alot of , lets say, less than skilled swordsmen out there. Either way I would rather have some training and practice in dealing with the situation than try and figure it out at the moment of attack. I think it is best to be prepared for anything. I find the idea that muto dori is inefective a bit myopic. Of course i agree no one cuts once and waits for the technique to be done. Good muto dori practice should involve multiple cuts and random attacks. Do you feel the same way about unarmed knife defense?

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    I think against an idiot with a knife who really has no idea how to use it, you have a better than average chance of defending yourself. Against a person trained in the use of the knife....not much chance at all!
    There is also a 3 foot reach difference in dealing with a swordsman as opposed to dealing with someone wielding a knife.

    I don't see the sense in practicing something which firstly, you will be extremely unlikely to encounter and secondly, something which you would most likely not be able to pull off.
    Makes more sense to me to spen your time practicing something useful.
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

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    You practice sword, and you are extreamly unlikely to encounter a swordfight, so are you spending your time practicing something useful? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just don't really see your logic here.

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    John,
    I was waiting for/expecting it. I practice a sword art because I enjoy it. I enjoy using the weapon and I enjoy being around like minded people.
    I have been practicing Jujutsu for 20 years and I practice that mainly for self defense reasons (as well as the above, but primarily self defense).
    I would rather spend my time working on 'slightly' probable knife defense scenarios and defenses against such things as, in our case cricket bats, screwdrivers and bottles than waste my time on most likely impossible muto dori.
    Tell me something, do you know anyone who you think would be able to get your sword from you (them being unarmed)?
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

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    One more thing. Muto dori teaches things that are extreamly useful. Things like entering, closing the distance while being under realistic and fast attack and remaining calm. Timing, moving at the moment the swordsman has comited to his strike and can't retract. I'ts all about taking control of the fight and the distance. Good muto dori should not be defensive. I find it odd that there are many ryu-ha that have some kind of sword disarm and you think they are all wasting their time? Are all these ryu-ha wrong?

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    John

    While my initial reaction to mutodori is not positive, you make a good point. I have seen our patron iai/jo sensei make the rest of us look stupid at times when we are wielding a sword and he is not. Undouptedly that is because he understands the sword better than most.

    There is I think the possibility that mutodori can be taught correctly and reasonably effectively. The problem is that some mutodori is dreamed up and taught by people who are utterly clueless about the sword and have no concept of the speed and distance differences that exist between armed and unarmed combat. I laugh and walk away when I tell people that I do iai then to be told that they do aikido/jujutsu/karate and have learned to disarm a swordsman. Sorry to be disrespectful to aiki people but even having watched such aikido giants as Tomita sensei do kendori, I am not convinced.

    My own sensei relates a story of when he was invited to teach some iai to the advanced students of a karate club in our area. He knew that they learned sword catching (!!!) and decided to put them straight. He started off the lesson by saying something along the lines of, right let's be clear about sword catching - who can cut this? He then delivered one of his typical cuts and there was a stunned silence. "Right, now we've got that out of the way let's practise iai."

    Therefore my own conclusive opinion is that mutodori could/might be a legitimate art but I have never seen it demonstrated convincingly by anyone other than one who understands and practises the sword.
    Andy Watson

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    Andy,
    I agree, I have also seen alot bad stuff out there. You are right not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

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    Nice post Andy.
    And on your last statement,

    Therefore my own conclusive opinion is that mutodori could/might be a legitimate art but I have never seen it demonstrated convincingly by anyone other than one who understands and practises the sword.
    anyone who understands and practises the sword arts should realise that it is highly improbable if not impossible.

    John,
    Timing, moving at the moment the swordsman has comited to his strike and can't retract
    What if the swordsman doesn't commit to an attack and always gives himself the option to change his movement.
    If a swordsman is competent, you should not be able to enter in on him.

    I find it odd that there are many ryu-ha that have some kind of sword disarm and you think they are all wasting their time? Are all these ryu-ha wrong?
    In a word, yes!
    Opinionated I know, but as a practitioner on both ends of the sword I believe it to be true.
    You still haven't answered my original question.
    do you know anyone who you think would be able to get your sword from you (them being unarmed)?
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

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    I haven't seen any example of a technique where the swordsman wasn't "Offering" his hands first.

    This doesn't happen. If you can show some me sone pictures which refute this that would be interesting.
    Mat Rous

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    If you have not seen an unarmed or "lesser" armed defendant disarm and defeat a sword-wielding attacker, it is because you haven't seen an adequately proficient demonstration. I can think off the top of my head two sensei that I seriously doubt most folks on this board could touch, even with a sword and said sensei unarmed. (And no, I do not want to devolve into a "my sensei can beat up your sensei" argument.)
    Like all force multipliers, a sword is more effective in certain ways, and less in others. For example, the moment after a cut, the blade usually needs to be turned in order to re-engage, unless you want to smack your enemy with the mune or shinogi. A basic avoidance and close technique is to come inside and to the side of the sword; for example as in various tessen, jutte, tanken, and aikido techniques. Also at the end of the cut, the swordsman's hands and forearms are nicely exposed.
    Practical? Useful? As mentioned before, I don't plan on being in any sword fights anytime soon, so no, certainly not. Easy? Nope. Requires impeccable maai among other things.
    But by the same argument, do you actually think you know more than 300+ years of techniques? Thanks, but I'll trust that my sensei's sensei's sensei's sensei's ... sensei knew what he was talking about.
    In closing, I am reminded that Niina-gosoke often says "there is only one technique in Mugai". Part of what he means is: we practice at least 20 different solo kata, 15 kumitachi, shizan, and various other weapons, and they're all basically the same. Sword, jo, tessen, unarmed, it's all basically the same.

    Regards,
    r e n

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