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Thread: Muto dori.......Really???????

  1. #31
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    Hello,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Armstrong
    A sword is a weapon same as any other- it's only as dangerous as the man wielding it is skillful.
    I'm not so sure about that. I've seen a good number of stupid people wielding shinken but lacking skills who still manage to be a danger to themselves and/or other people nearby. Some weapons are inherently more dangerous than others.

    Just another perspective.

    Regards,

    Ron Beaubien

  2. #32
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    Of course they are a danger- that's what a weapon does- it gives the idiot more capability. It doesn't mean that you should necessarily give up in the face of an armed opponent. The first course is to fight an armed opponent with a weapon of your own . If you don't have a weapon, run like hell. If you are trapped, well you gotta do something. Understanding the weapon you have to fight against is the first step- hence tachidori. My personal preference would be a double tap to the centre of the seen mass, perhaps followed [in order of preference] by judicious use of the wakizashi/tanto but you use what you have............

    BTW this theory goes for knives and anything else sharp or nasty. A half brick to the noggin can work wonders....
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

  3. #33
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    I agree Jock, the main problem I have with the technique is how it is instructed and/or demonstrated. I've never seen the instructor say "you are in all likelihood going to die, so here's your only hope out". I've only seen "well, all you have to do is step in here, grab this, a little spin and shazam!"
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gendzwil
    I agree Jock, the main problem I have with the technique is how it is instructed and/or demonstrated. I've never seen the instructor say "you are in all likelihood going to die, so here's your only hope out". I've only seen "well, all you have to do is step in here, grab this, a little spin and shazam!"
    And the same is said for lots of weapons defences. A jujutsu instructor friend-of-a-friend went to one street defence class to see what they did. There the instructor was getting his students to hold marker pens to each other's necks to see if their defence techniques were effective enough to stop them from getting cut. My FOAF had a go, held the pen to the instructors neck and just drew a line across his throat before the instructor had time to say go. At that my FOAF said f... off and walked out.

    Some of the ridiculous things we see at SENI (the UK martial arts expo) are equally stoopid with all kinds of stunts against knives going on.

    Now add a couple of feet to the sword and...hey presto.
    Andy Watson

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    Inaho ka na

    http://www.simenergy.co.uk

  5. #35
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    I've heard exactly that...last ditch effort. only hope. Better than dying. I'm surprised that phrase is so unusual in relation to muto dori.

    Best,
    Ron
    Quote Originally Posted by gendzwil
    I agree Jock, the main problem I have with the technique is how it is instructed and/or demonstrated. I've never seen the instructor say "you are in all likelihood going to die, so here's your only hope out". I've only seen "well, all you have to do is step in here, grab this, a little spin and shazam!"

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    For me, that would mean a change of arts/schools/teacher!
    There is a difference in what is done in the traditional Japanese arts and what is done for "modern street effective fighting". The main difference that I have noticed is that the modern arts tend to teach "if he does this, you do this!" The traditional Japanese arts have a more holistic approach. They teach a way of reacting, without actually teaching specifics. While there are specific kata taught within all of the Japanese arts, they are not there to teach technique, but rather to instill a particular set of reactions and movements as defined by the overall outlook of the ryu. I would venture to guess that the muto dori practice of, say, the Yagyu Shinkage ryu, is more concerned with teaching principle than in teaching actual "techniques". While I can't say that this is a fact since I do not practice this art, I can say that this is the way that all of the koryu approach their teaching.

    So, I wouldn't know any where near enough about any art to question whatever sensei said I was to practice. If you really didn't trust your sensei enough to believe that he knows what he's doing, then I agree with you Howard, it would definitely be time to change instructors.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Quick
    It just really amazes me that people who practice the art of swordsmanship think they can be disarmed by an unarmed person.
    Someone like Yagyu Munenori?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Humm
    Within the book "Budo Hidensho" which was written/compiled in 1968.

    Loosely translated from the section, "The truths regarding 'muto no jutsu'":
    John Halloway

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Quick
    It's as bad as a demo at last years Aiki Expo where an Aikido practitioner defeated 4 swordsmen with a Jo! How ludicrous.
    I don't know about the demos at Aiki Expo, but you have never seen a truly skilled jo practitioner if you think jo could not defeat sword, even multiple attackers.
    Shindomusoryu jo was developed specifically to defeat sword, and all things being equal (if such a comparison was possible) it's at least even money if not better odds for the jo.
    Such blanket statements are fairly ludicrous in and of themselves, then again I think you are not considering traditional arts in the relevant context, comparing them against 'modern street fighting', for which they were never intended, and therefore obviously will come out lacking.

    Regards,

    r e n

  9. #39
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    Funny thing when talking about being unarmed against a weapon, the general idea is "well thats it he's got a weapon, i've had it", well i think the simplest way to explane muto dori could be "what if he misses?"
    And whats one of the first things you learn in martial arts, get out the way!
    So you get out the way, he misses his attack, were do you go from there?
    And just because it doesnt have a sharp edge doesnt make it an inferior weapon, you wouldent try to deflect the sharp edge of a sword with a jo, but the sharp edge is only a small part of the sword itself and the person who uses it.
    Dont forget you need your arms and hands to use a sword, take away his ability to use his hands and you take away his ability to weild a sword, with a jo this is easy to show as the most obvious would be to avoid the attack and then strike his hand just below the tsuba.
    Also keep in mind you cut with a sword using the top few inches of the blade, if you are close in there is less chance of you getting cut, and as the same muto dori techniques can work against many weapons you may encounter (such as a baseball bat) the same applys, all the force is at the end of the bat, the closer in you are the less it is going to hurt.
    Its not such a ludicrous thought if you realy think about it.
    Simon Novelli
    Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

  10. #40
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    One thing to remember is that the blade is long but the pivot point in your hand is very small. Even a missed cut can be converted into a thrust/defensive stance by a small hand movement.

    The unarmed person has to move his body a lot more than I have to move my hand.

    Also, the styles I've seen (which is not exhaustive BTW) focus on not overcommitting the cut to leave you exposed. Obviously, a "real-life" scenario is going to be slightly different.
    Mat Rous

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    Shinkage Ryu Iaido has (at least) 5 empty hand kata in the curriculum... for different social situations sith sword in or out of saya, standing or sitting.

    Facing an experienced swordsman with desire to do grevious injury, definitely a last ditch thing, but even in 16th century Japan many potential opponents were not experienced swordsmen.

    Against the inexperienced or against someone that underestimated the unarmed or someone hesitant due to doubt (for example facing a known sensei may put doubt into the mind of a student level practitioner), or someone tryign to arrest/detain rather than kill it would be much more viable as long as the muto person was more experienced than the swordsman.

    Even someone as slow as me can practice their understanding of mai and timing when teaching kendo students tenouchi by occasionally stepping into the swordsman to avoid the shinai (though a raw beginner tagged me on the outside of my left shoulder doing it last night - showing it is not a sure thing ) so I have no trouble thinking a competent practitioner could do it to the less prepared.

    Aden
    Aden Steinke
    University of Wollongong Kendo club
    http://www.kendo-wollongong.com/

  12. #42
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    Hi guys,

    There are a few things I have been thinking about and I would like to put in.

    Howard is someone with experience in the field and quite a lot I think.
    Jujutsu is effective, very much so. I have been training jujutsu for some thirty years and occasionaly have put it to good use. That would be ranging from some scuffles (stupid and boring to tell) avoiding bikes and being alert enough in some foreign cities to avoid trouble. Nowadays I mostly use it to keep fit and limber (ah well).

    Aikidoka - with all respect - are not swordsmen. Aikidoka brandishing a sword will not attack like swordsmen do - they will attack like aikidoka do using a sword to facilitate aikido techniques.

    Shindo Muso is indeed created to defeat a sword (or was it a bokken the creator had in mind since he developed the system after being defeated by Musashi. I seem to recall that Musashi used a bokken in this fight or so the story goes).
    Are there any other known situations of Shindo Muso-ryu being used to defeat swordattacks?

    One of the things I don't get is that a of people seem to think a swordsman with his sword drawn has to make an attack to kill you. He doesn't have to!
    With the sword in chudan gamae or whatever name you use for the kamae he will starts moving towards you that alone is an attack. He is not going to give any openings (until he has cut you and you are bleeding and feeble).

    All this does not mean that I am in favor of giving up fighting as in "okay you can kill me", not me but to come to the best ways to deal with a weapon we have to understand it. And a lot of us do not.


    Simon wrote:

    "Also keep in mind you cut with a sword using the top few inches of the blade, if you are close in there is less chance of you getting cut, and as the same muto dori techniques can work against many weapons you may encounter (such as a baseball bat) the same applys, all the force is at the end of the bat, the closer in you are the less it is going to hurt.
    Its not such a ludicrous thought if you realy think about it."


    Simon with all respect and I do not say this easily - you are wrong - this is dojotalk and dojotraining.

    A baseball bat and a sword are two very different weapons, different dynamics, different ways of handling, they are both dangerous in different ways, different ways to deal with them.

    You are saying one only attacks with top few inches of the blade?
    Well than muto dori techniques will work out fine for you. No trouble at all.

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

  13. #43
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    Yes i see were you are coming from, and i agree that they are two different weapons, and to echo what has been said before all of this is last resort.
    However, i dont think you would dissagree that the end of a baseball bat (whilst being swung in your general direction) holds the majority of force, if you move into the attack and the bat hits you close to were the guy is holding it the impact will be far less.
    Of course there are many ways of hitting someone with a sword, you can use the tsuba or the tuska, as with a bat you can use the end your holding, but as far as i understand when you cut you are cutting with the top few inches of the blade, and as with the baseball bat example if you get hit with the part just above the tsuka, the damage will be far less.
    And if my understanding of the katana is correct it wonts simply cut you if you make contact with the edge of the blade (to a certain degree, oviously it depends on how hard it may hit you) it needs a 'pulling' motion to make the cut.
    I said that when you cut you cut with the top few inches of the blade, not to imply that you can only attack with a katana using the top few inches.
    Also someone said that it is very easiy to turn your blade and attack again if your first cut missed, this is very true, however muto dori takes this into account and in my experiance teaches to not alow them to be able to make the second cut, to close the gaps as it were.
    It seems to me that muto dori would not still exsist if it was so uneffective, and for what i have seen and experianced it is quite possible to disarm someone using muto dori, i am no expert nor have i been training for a long time, i am simply going of logical conclusions to what i have witnessed myself in the Bujinkan.
    I understand what you say about a swordsman will not give any openings untill he has already cut you, but in the moment were he has decided to make his attack he will be already doing so and he still has to move is sword from one possition to another to be able to cut you, in this instant is were you need to get out the way and respond accordingly.
    His sword must go from wherever it is to wherever you are, in between these two instances is were you have your chance, not before and not after, well lets face it afterwards you'd be dead.
    It is not so much that i am saying you would handle a sword and a bat the same way, rather the principal behind muto dori stays the same, the 'feeling' of muto dori if you will, of course your distance and physical movement will differ, but the idea behind it i dont think changes.
    Like i say i am no expert and i am glad people step up and say "you are wrong" because it gives me something to think about, but does what i'm saying make sense? Can you see were i'm coming from? and by all means tell me if i am wrong.
    Simon Novelli
    Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

  14. #44
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    Simon my post may have sounded a bit more negative than was the intention but...Even is only part of the blade is free from the scabbard (with most part still inside) it can be used to do very serious damage close by.

    The chudan kamae in itself is an attack. The swordman will run or walk you through without changing the position of his sword. No need for him to change the direction of his attack. The point is directed at you and it is backed by a long cutting edge.

    The fact that muto dori still exists does not say anything about it's effectiveness when you ask me. There are situations where those techniques could probably be used not as a technique of choice but as a last resort. But those situations would probably be when the one doing muto dori would be wearing armour. That would be a different story.

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

  15. #45
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    Default Simon....you're very wrong!

    Simon, thanks for taking the time to be involved in this topic. Agree or not, it's all interesting.
    Sorry about the heading, you asked to be told.
    If you make the slightest contact with a sharp sword the effects could be devistating. It doesn't need a pulling or pushing motion. Dotan giri is a cut that does not use a pushing or pulling motion and it is rumoured that the record for cutting (more like chopping with dotan giri) is seven bodies in one cut!
    The speed at which multiple cuts can be delivered whilst using a decent amount of body movement to cut from multiple angles and directions is frightening and something I believe nobody could defend against or even survive. Have you ever been on the receiving end of a baseball bat? I have (actually a cricket bat). Nothing like a sword! You can move in on someone brandishing a dull weapon and to a certain degree, wear or absorb part of the weapons momentum. It won't cut you if you brush up against it! If you try to absorb or wear any part of a sword blade, the resulting injuries will be horrific.
    You are absolutely correct about the last few inches of the long weapon being the most dangerous, however that does not apply to a sword as the entire length of the weapon is razor sharp. Infact, the closer to the tsuka, the sharper a sword usually is as that part doesn't get used very often.
    Johan, thanks for a very well written, thought out post. Not because I mostly agree with it, but because this is the sort of conversation I was hoping to provoke.
    Ren, as I said earlier, I have been training in MA solidly for the past 20 years.
    Actually since I was eight and lived in Malaysia.
    I have travelled all over the world and witnessed many, many demonstrations from a great deal of arts, styles and teachers/practitioners.
    I think I've witnessed my fair share! Including some horrific accidents whereby the attacker didn't move 'correctly', thus causing serious injury to the muto dori exponent. (now that was real).
    I have never seen muto dori demonstrated from a decent attack performed by a competent swordsman. I have however seen it demonstrated probably hundreds of times by people who are in total denial and believe themselves to be more skillfull than they actually are.
    the demo I refer to at Aiki expo was performed by apparently one of the USA's best in their field!!!
    Ren, would you actually be willing to face a swordsman, with shinken and attempt muto dori?
    I would say that whatever demo's of muto dori you've seen are not realistic simply for the reason that the person swinging the sword would have been either a student, teacher, friend whatever of the person demonstrating muto dori and therefor the intent to kill is not present. Infact the intent to 'not harm' would be extremely high and seriously playing on the mind of the attacker.
    Anyway, it's all good healthy discussion, keep it coming guys.
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

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