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Thread: Muto dori.......Really???????

  1. #46
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    Aikidoka - with all respect - are not swordsmen. Aikidoka brandishing a sword will not attack like swordsmen do - they will attack like aikidoka do using a sword to facilitate aikido techniques
    Hmm, did anyone suggest otherwise?

    Best,
    Ron

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Armstrong
    A sword is a weapon same as any other- it's only as dangerous as the man wielding it is skillful.
    I think that pretty much says it all. Don't get me wrong, I like reading all the different ideas and opinions on e-budo, but I really gotta go with Mr. Armstrong on this one. I mean lets face it, when it comes to any "will this work in real life" question, that is pretty much the answer. If you're more skilled than your opponent, it'll probably work. If you're not, it probably won't. Thats true of everything; whether you're talkin about swords or sledgehammers.

    As far as the question "would muto dori work in real life?" I suspect that if you have any proficiency at it at all, then yes I suspect it will work. The reason I say this is because, as far as "real life" is concerned, the only kind of person who would attack you with a medieval japanese melee weapon is gonna be someone who undoubtedly does not know how to use it effectively. ya know, one of those guys who learned kenjutsu from watchin the american ninja sequals. (ninja swords are straight, samurai swords aren't. )
    John Frakes

  3. #48
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    I agree with Howard this is a good discussion and it is very interesting to see people with different backgrounds participating.
    Talking about one's art, sharing ideas will make ones art stronger (that is if you train as well...).
    There are still a lot of things we do not understand correctly I quess. That is not because we lack intelligence or ideas but because we lack information which is available in Japanese but not in English (apart from some of the boards like this one).

    I am at the office right now (pc at home crashed) so I don't have access to sources but:

    One of the senseis of Daito-ryu has stated that the techniques against multiple attackers (in which they are all thrown on a big heap) are not very realistic and mainly done as form of advertising the art during demo's.

    Now that is an eyeopener. Some people didn't believe it (or didn't want to believe it).

    I think it was Ellis Amdur who wrote on this board about Shosho-ryu being a very farmerlike very country art and in one of their techniques (basically a judo tomoenage) uke flips over and lands on his feet. This was done as amusement, for fun. As in something else to do while training. I had seen the technique but didn't know this until Ellis Amdur wrote about it. It is now probably part of the curriculum but that is what the background is.

    With mutodori it is much the same I quess. Sure there are some techniques to be used on the battlefield as a last ditch. But a lot of it is just for demo's - doing pretty techniques, a crowdpleaser maybe it was even so 150 years ago in Japan. The teachers then needed students too, to make a living. So what do you do? Expand your style's curriculum - so they will train with you for longer. Make your style more attractive so they will come in crowds.

    And what does the general public do? With mouths agape watch them do unbelievable things.

    When my children reach a certain age I plan on teaching them jujutsu. I have asked myself will I teach them techniques to use in case their lives were at stake? Yes I will. Will I teach them mutodori techniques? One or two I quess and I will point their attention to this discussion so they can make up their own minds.

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

  4. #49
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    Ron, nope you are right nobody did suggest that.

    One more thing - I don't think a weapon is only as dangerous as the man wielding it is skillful. Someone not trained can do an enourmous amount of damage wielding a sword. Even an expert without weapons would be at a grave disadvantage fighting a mediocre swordsman.

    When it concerns weapons there are different levels of danger.
    A jo or bo or wooden weapon wielded by a mediocre attacker - you got a good chance I think even unarmed. Against a mediocre swordsman? Nope.

    best regards,

    gotta run and teach class

    Johan Smits

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Frakes
    If you're more skilled than your opponent, it'll probably work. If you're not, it probably won't. Thats true of everything; whether you're talkin about swords or sledgehammers.
    If you re-wrote that to say "exponentially more skilled", I might agree. The FMA guys do this with knife practice - hand someone a marker, try to take it away without getting "cut". They almost always get cut, even against complete beginners. Take the time (like, under an hour) to give the beginner a little instruction and the odds get much, much worse.

    There's a reason we invented and use weapons.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by gendzwil

    There's a reason we invented and use weapons.
    You're right. You're absolutely right. When an unarmed man faces an armed man the unarmed man is doomed. He might as well just get on his knees and beg for mercy. All martial arts training aside, no unarmed man can defeat a man who is armed. I completely agree.

    ...

    This is a martial arts forum isn't it?
    John Frakes

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Frakes
    All martial arts training aside, no unarmed man can defeat a man who is armed.
    Did I say that? Let me be more clear: the weapon makes up for a whole pile of training. Your assertion that the more skilled will generally prevail is false. To defeat an armed opponent when unarmed requires a great deal more skill. I don't maintain that it is not worth training, merely that the reality of the situation is much more dire than many instructors think.

    It's pretty simple if you want to test it. Go down to your local kendo club, pick a fairly low level guy (say, 1 or 2 years training) and see if you can take his shinai away without getting hit. I'll bet your success rate is under 10%. Now try it with the instructor. I'll bet you'll blow an afternoon trying to get your success rate above 0.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Quote Originally Posted by gendzwil
    Your assertion that the more skilled will generally prevail is false.
    so your assertion is that a less skilled individual will generally prevail against a more skilled?
    John Frakes

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Frakes
    so your assertion is that a less skilled individual will generally prevail against a more skilled?
    If the less skilled individual has a weapon and the skilled person not, yes.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by gendzwil
    If the less skilled individual has a weapon and the skilled person not, yes.
    that may be singularly the most absurd and ridiculous thing I have ever heard (seen) a martial artist say (type).
    John Frakes

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Frakes
    that may be singularly the most absurd and ridiculous thing I have ever heard (seen) a martial artist say (type).
    I think it's more absurd that you believe the hype of whatever it is you practice. Here's a hint: even if you're both unarmed, it's not a lock just because you have some skill. If the other guy's got speed and/or muscle on you, trouble may ensue. Think of a knife in his hand like all of a sudden you're facing a pro football tackle.

    Try it for real, or at least as real as you can safely make it - many people have. Put on some old clothes, give a guy a magic marker and try to take it away without getting a mark on your clothes. Let him swing a shinai freely, try to take it away without getting hit. It's an eye-opener.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  12. #57
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    Interesting topic. I would note that the whole conversation turns on edged vs. blunt weapons--edged being decisively less forgiving than blunt. I recall being told the first rule of knife fighting is that you're going to be cut. The marker game was pretty much always a game-like exercise of trying to do the impossible.

    I think it's still valuable as an exercise if only to sharpen the avoidance skills and to understand what's required when facing the worst (and I've always liked silly games). The level of risk being the unarmed person is huge, even when the skill gap is gigantic. I recall it was also a rather fun drill on those rare times when you succeeded.
    Quote Originally Posted by gendzwil
    give the beginner a little instruction and the odds get much, much worse.
    A year ago, I could consistently close the distance and remove the shinai from my son's hands without being hit. After a year of kendo, it's near impossible. I expect that as soon as he stops being intimidated by the size difference, it will be completely impossible (unless I step up my skill and speed by a few orders of magnitude).

    I've still got a few more years until I reach mediocre swordsman status.
    Nathan Haley

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    What's worse Nathan, is that he's probably still getting quicker...while you and I are probably getting slower!

    Best,
    Ron (But our timing is hopefully getting better!)

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    that may be singularly the most absurd and ridiculous thing I have ever heard (seen) a martial artist say (type).
    I don't see any way at all that you can possibly say that with a straight face! Martial artists are not super heroes. Kill Bill was not real. Of course the odds lie with someone that has a weapon, even if they've never used it before in their life. You would be absolutely amazed at the damage a tire tool, in the hands of an angry man with no martial arts training at all, can do. There is a reason that law enforcement officers, and everyone that I've met has been a trained martial artist, will shoot a knife weilding suspect rather than attempt to disarm him.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    However, we should take into consideration the fact that a trained fighter, facing an armed opponent, will probably get armed as quickly as possible. I am a trained fighter, were I to encounter soemone brandishing a katana in such a way that was threatening to me, I woud use one of the weapons I always have handy, (cell phone) call in some retainers of mine whose koku I provide (local p.d.). I would, if forced to fight this maniac, get a weapon, create a weapon, or take his. A trained fighter doesn't accept formalized tactics.
    i believe this thread is a waste of space, muto 0r tachi dori is/ can be done. You just have to be good at it.
    John Halloway

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