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Thread: Muto dori.......Really???????

  1. #76
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    I can't help but feel that this topic is becoming just a little over complicated.

    Now, it's very true that a sword is a dangerous weapon. Thats a no brainer. But its not like its a death ray. Its a single edged hand held weapon. You can only do so much with this object. When it comes to muto dori, if you're facing a man who very deeply understands how to utilize the strengths and weaknesses of this weapon, and who will be effective in its utilization, your odds are not good. If you face a novice, your odds are much better. Now, this assumes that you understand the strengths and weaknesses of this weapon and are able to incorporate that understanding into your muto dori. If your muto dori sucks, odds are you'll get chopped up in either situation. If your muto dori doesnt suck, then your odds are better in either situation.

    But thats true of everything. It doesnt matter whether its a sword or a punch or a kick or a swing from a baseball bat or whatever else. If you are more skilled at avoiding the attack that the attacker presents than he is at delivering that attack then odds are you'll get out of the way.

    There's really nothing complicated about this.

    Lemme put it another way. When it comes to modern warfare I'd say the US army is something of an authority on the matter, at least in as much that they're better than most other countries can boast of being, so lets use them.

    When you're going through infantry training down at Ft. Benning one of the very first things that gets repeatedly drilled into your head is the idea of minimalizing or negating enemy fire. Think of any war movie you've ever seen where someone yells "COVER!" and you'll know what I'm talking about. the idea is when the enemy fires on you there are things you can do to help protect yourself, whether its moving to physical cover or going prone or whatever. but thats not the point. The point is when the enemy attacks; you get your !!! outta the way.

    And I'm sure it was the same for the samurai. Dont get me wrong, I don't believe theres any "end all" way to do muto dori that will completely neutralize a skilled swordsman so that he will eventually walk away in disgust and frustration. Thats not what Im saying at all. I'm saying the muto dori movements (at least the ones that Ive seen) are designed to minimalize the damage. Yes, avoiding the blade completely is nice, but thats not really the point. The point is: when the attack comes, you get your !!! outta the way.

    Does that mean it will work? No, not necessarily, but it's better than just standing there isn't it? Like I said, the question of "will this work?" depends on you and it depends on your opponent. The mindset, mental and physical conditioning, environment, training and experience, and whatever else will all play a part in determining the answer to the "will this work?" question as it applies to anything. It doesnt matter whether you're talkin about swords or kalishnakovs.

    combat is always a very fluid situation, and I think that's something that we can all agree on.

    (sorry for the long winded post. my workload is nonexistant today, so I have alot of free time.)
    John Frakes

  2. #77
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    I was thinking about this muto dori discussion and I still think most of us are armchair warriors. I wonder how many of us have worked with just knives in a professional environment? I grew up around a butchery and have worked in it. We are talking big butcherknives you know - the long ones. And that is not even close to a katana.

    A weapon is just a weapon and as good as the man or woman handling it is just not true. As I said before - one stands a chance against a sword as long as it is inside the scabbard. Once it is free the only thing the swordfighter has to do is to stand in seigan or chudan or whatever you call it and come towards you. You stand almost no chance because without a weapon of your own you are not going to close the distance.

    best,

    Johan Smits

  3. #78
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    It is amazing to me how people can speak with such certainty about what works and what does not work. I think it is the height of arrogance to say 'these old traditions don't work because i was in a fight once so I know better than everyone that has come before me. There is really nothing that relates to working with a sword, not knives, or bats, not sharp pointy sticks. Anyone who speaks in absolutes is really showing how little they know. A friend of mine sent me some photos of a police officer who had been cut up with a knife, he had a deep cut across his chest, one on his belly and one down the length of his back. These were long deep cuts and he surrvived. No outcome is a certainty.

  4. #79
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    It is a bit theoretical I quess but to know if mutodori really "works" we should know the figure of incidents and the outcome of those incidents from the moment these techniques came into existence until now.

    As in how many people used mutodori and lived a happy and healthy life after and how many died trying. Only then would we have a reliable answer.



    John said:

    "I think it is the height of arrogance to say 'these old traditions don't work because i was in a fight once so I know better than everyone that has come before me."

    Speaking for myself, this is an important point. I do believe the older traditions had a lot of good or have a lot of good. But the whole misunderstanding about mutodori comes from a lot of dojowarriors not being very critical also not when it comes to the old traditions.

    Books are not to be believed but to be subjected to inquiry - I think Umberto Eco said this in "the name of the rose". I think the same holds true for the old or for that matter new traditions.

    best,

    Johan Smits

  5. #80
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    Hi Johan,
    That’s the problem, we shall never know how many times it worked or failed. And I don't have a problem if people don't want to practice such things. The problem I do have is when people use terms like 'absolute' and 'impossible' to me these words should not exist in a martial artist’s vocabulary. They doom one to failure.
    The other problem I have is when people start picking apart an art and say this doesn't work and this does. I don't think these techniques were ever designed to be about two martial artists challenging each other. The guy with the sword sees his enemy and steps in and cuts him down. He is not shifting around trying to do non-committed attacks and knowing with a certainty the other guy is going to try and enter and do a sword takeaway. If you were holding a gun on someone and had decided to shoot him or her down. You don't walk around them shifting the gun from hand to hand and try non-committed attempts to shoot them because you think they might enter in and try and take your gun away. You simply point the gun and shoot them down. But even that outcome is not for certain.
    I do agree with you and Mr. Eco, that everything is subject to inquiry. But it always helps to ask the right questions.

  6. #81
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    My extremely limited understanding of muto dori is that it was/is the highest skill in swordsmanship and only possible after years of training and the possession of not only incredible physical skills but also a deep and profound understanding of the sword.
    Interestingly enough, I haven't found mention of ri-ai on this thread, which I would have thought pivotal.
    Andrew Smallacombe

    Aikido Kenshinkai

    JKA Tokorozawa

    Now trotting over a bridge near you!

  7. #82

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    John's comments reminded me of the fact that some police departments train in close combat gun take-aways. And assailants have been successfully disarmed using some of these methods. And police have been shot and killed trying to take them away as well. I was lucky in being allowed to learn these with one of the trainers I know for a local police department. Good, solid technique. But they require some proximity to the aggressor that a trained gunman would know better than to allow.

    They do not make someone immune to attack or absolutely able to survive a situation with a gun. Heck, it is a *HORRIBLE* situation and most likely someone is going to die. I just have no intent to stand there and let it be me. I wanna go out with at least doing something to control my own destiny.

    But against the trained gunman I'd have virtually zero chance. He or she wouldn't let me be close enough to do anything. And the moment I even twitch a round would probably enter my chest. Followed by another one and possibly one to the forehead. Not good survival chances on that one. But it goes directly back to John's comment about two trained martial artists up against each other.

    The police absolutely don't abandon gun takeaways just because against a trained gunman you don't stand a chance. Of course not. Most assailants on the street aren't trained gunmen. But lots of bad guys have guns. So it is good to know. And you might as well try *if* you believe that you're going to get shot anyway. And policemen are intimately aware that someone pointing a gun at them is usually a sign of a very desperate assailant. Bad situation.

    Historically not all guys with swords were highly trained, highly conditioned swordsmen. Having a sword does not make you a proficient swordsman. At many times in history the poor guys on the front line were drafted peasants with crappy swords hanging through their tattered obi. Sometimes with only the most rudimentary of training. Heck, there were time periods when swords were made en masse and were very low quality. Those swords weren't being made for experienced, highly trained and valuable swordsmen. They were made for the "troops" who were likely to be perforated under a shower of arrows the next day. How much training do you guys think those guys had?

    "Hold the sword with both hands, bring it over your head, run over towards the other guy and whack him until he stops moving! There, you're ready... And when you die make sure you fall in front of them so they trip over you before they come this way..."


    Heck, just watch some of the nitwits who post videos of their "master" sword techniques. Spinny, swirling crap, gross over extension, deep follow through, huge openings, etc. Sure, they can still get ya, but you have a chance with one of those twits. In part due to their lack of proper training but also in no small part due to the hubris of the person holding the weapon.

    How many guys in the days of old looked pretty much like this fella below when they first held their sword?





    But in the end the reason I train in it is that it is part of the curriculum. And I get a great deal out of the practice. I am also under no illusions that many of the folk posting in this very thread would likely cut me in two if I tried it with them. But not everyone with a sword is a "swordsman", neh? And anything I can do to improve my abilities overall, to expand my vision, to expand my understanding of space, time and movement are good things to me. Anything to stress the edges of what I can do is a good day of training. And that stuff certainly pushes the envelope.

  8. #83
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    Keith and John,

    You both are right I think in what you say. John about asking the right question. What grizzles me a bit though is the ease people talk about taking a sword away as if it is nothing. I also think Keith's comparison to gun take away's by police is very good.
    My point of view is very much that of a civilian (which after all I am). Police officers who use their arts in reallife situations for me come very close I feel to the mentallity that is needed for mutodori techniques to be succesful.

    That by the way does not change my thinking that unarmed against a sword you have a chance only if the sword is in the scabbard. Unarmed against a sword which is free - okay two options - the guy is an absolute moron with a sword than you will probably have a fighting chance. Against someone with only mediocre swordskill - nope - your head on a plate.

    I have trained in mutodori and tried with some friends who are trained in swordtechniques. Although I do not lack confidence in my own abilities which are quite reasonable (my own words I hasten to say) but I do suffer from a healthy dose of realism in my outlook on training.

    best,

    Johan Smits

  9. #84
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    Default Read the original question...

    The original question was
    How many people out there who practice a sword art they would consider to be effective, or atleast reasonably so, also practice mutodori???? And why?
    Key words being "effective" and "atleast reasonably so".
    With this in mind, if you think muto dori is possible then you must believe your sword can be taken from you, or that a person can defend themselves against you (you being a competent swordsman, them being unarmed).
    Therefor if this is your belief, you are not practicing an effective system of swordsmanship!
    You can't compare gun take-aways to muto dori. Firstly, you can grab the barrel of a gun (as is practiced by many Jujutsu schools). There is nothing sharp to worry about. Secondly, a person has to aim a gun. A sword does not need to be aimed at a person, it merely needs to come between the two. As far as I am aware, from talking with people trained in professions which use a gun to arrest/subdue an assailant/criminal, they are told that if they hold their gun to the person they may as well hand it to them. These are people trained in the weapons' use. Taking a gun is not that difficult and therefor not relevent to this discussion.
    John, I believe the attacker in that knife attack was shot by the victims partner. If not, he would have surely died!
    The guy with the sword sees his enemy and steps in and cuts him down.
    This is exactly the reason people think muto dori is possible. Why do people always think that a cut with a sword has to be a full bodied, committed action?
    What about stepping backwards and cutting?
    What about feinting an attack from one angle and changing to another angle?
    Just what defences are possible against a kesa (diagonal) cut?
    How are you supposed to move in on a swordsman when you can't even see the blade???
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

  10. #85
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    Howard,
    I want to know why you are using feints and attacking from other angles and doing all this fancy stuff against an unarmed man? It must be to stop them from entering and doing some kind of takeaway. So if you are doing this to ensure the unarmed man doesn't take your sword away this validates the possiblity that it might work. Otherwise you would just walk up and cut down the poor defenseless man.

    I just think you are being incredibly arrogant. I don't care if you have been training for twenty years or fifty years. You have not seen everything out there nor have you experienced everyones technique, so for you to say that it is impossible just shows your imaturity.

    Let me get this straight, taking a gun is not difficult? Are you kidding? I would rather go up a guy with a sword than a guy with a gun anyday.

    As for my ablity with a sword, I have the utmost confidence in the effectiveness of myself and my art.

    This has been an interesting discussion but I don't think we will ever come to any kind of an agreement. You belive what you want. Good luck with your training.

  11. #86
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    "You can't compare gun take-aways to muto dori. Firstly, you can grab the barrel of a gun (as is practiced by many Jujutsu schools)....Taking a gun is not that difficult and therefor not relevent to this discussion."


    --These types of statements are typically heard by folks who have minimal (if any) training in how to apply a firearm in a lethal force encounter. Unless your arms are seven meters long, you won't be grabbing any well-trained and prepared gun-fighter's barrel. However, rather than dwell on Mr. Quick's experience with firearms, it's interesting that his assertions somewhat prove the case FOR training in muto-dori, rather than against it. As Mr. Larman pointed out above, many if not most police officers are trained in rudimentary firearm disarming techniques, even though a well-trained gunman wouldn't dream of choosing to engage his/her target at contact distance if it could be avoided. The obvious conclusion is that police are training to take firearms away from poorly trained attackers. Why would that be any less the case with a sword? Even if muto-dori techniques only exist/are taught to provide a last-ditch effort to disarm a very poorly-trained swordsman, isn't that reason enough to learn them? How ridiculous would it be to be an expert swordsman who was unable to disarm a violent but untrained nutbag wielding a sword because "he wasn't well-trained enough?"
    Brett A. Charvat

  12. #87
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    Gentlemen,

    About the original question - I did practice a sword art and I do believe someone can take my sword away, but only when I have not drawn it yet.

    I also do not think a swordfighter will make the mistake once he has drawn his sword and is facing me (unarmed) to chance his postition from chudan kamae, since it is not necessary.


    The comparison John made with guns is actually very good I think. Sword and gun are both lethal weapons different though. The pointing of the gun and pointing of the sword are much the same. What I was trying to say in my previous post was that the mindset needed for gun take aways is when you ask me pretty much the same as for mutodori.

    Oh and Howard, you are supposed to move in on the swordsman if you can't see the blade (means it is in the scabbard).

    The strategies for gun and knife (sword) are different though. I read this somewhere on the net (can't remember where): you rush a gun and run from a knife. That's good advice.

    I'll be away for a short holliday.

    best,

    Johan Smits

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    Oh and Howard, you are supposed to move in on the swordsman if you can't see the blade (means it is in the scabbard).

    Johan Smits[/QUOTE]

    erm, not at all... wakigamae (Waki kamae)

    The only reason I post this is there is so many absolute assumptions being made. What if this, what if that etc.

    IF Muto-dori was in my Sensei's curriculum, I would study it, why, because he said so. Agree or disagree, if it's in the Ryu - then this should be respected.

    Yours in Budo

    Jason

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    Jason,

    You know it was a bit of a joke. Actually if the swordsman is any good you won't see the blade if it is held in chudan gamae.

    I agree with you, if mutodori was in my sensei's curriculum I would study it but I would be very critical about it. One of the things I would want to know from my sensei is if he had ever used the technique in a reallife situation.
    If it is in the ryu than it should be respected is not how I feel about things. Anything in the ryu is to be subjected to inquiry (all at the proper time of course meaning at the correct level of expertise within that ryu).

    Happy landings.

    Johan Smits

  15. #90
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    Hi Johan,

    I am pretty sure we would all be in agreement in regards to certain points if we were sitting around a table, sipping a beer without the internet in the way.

    Cheers mate

    Jason

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