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Thread: Kimura on Helio Gracie - The Plot Thickens

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    Default Kimura on Helio Gracie - The Plot Thickens

    Apparently M. Kimura did not see the famous fight with Helio the way the Gracies remember it. From "My Judo," by Masahiko Kimura:

    'After I returned from Hawaii, I went to Brazil by the invitation of Sao Paulo Shinbun (Note: local Japanese newspaper company in Sao Paulo). Sao Paulo Shinbun, which was in a slump, came up with an idea of doing pro wrestling to revive their business. The period of contract was 4 months. The participants were I, Yamaguchi, and Kato 5th dan. This enterprise was a big success. Wherever we went, the arena was super-packed. This made Pres. Mizuno of Sao Paulo Shinbun very happy. When we asked for a pay raise, he tripled our original pay on the spot. In addition to pro wrestling, we gave judo instruction wherever we went.

    One day, Helio Gracie, judo 6th dan, issued a challenge to us. The rule of the bout was different from that of judo or pro wrestling. The winner was decided by submission only. No matter how cleanly a throw is executed or how long Osaekomi lasts, it does not count. He issued a challenge to Kato 5th dan first. The gong rang. Kato was in good condition, and threw Helio a number of times. However, past 15 minute mark, I started to see frustration in Kato=s face. The throws had no damage on Helio since the mat was soft. At 30 min mark, it was evident that Kato was tired. "What's the matter, Kato, go to Newaza, don't stand up!" Japanese audience yelled. Kato then threw helio down by O-soto-gari, mounted on Helio, and started Juji-jime. The audience roared with excitement. But, as I watched carefully, Helio was also applying a choke from below. They were trying to choke out each other. This lasted about 3 or 4 minutes. Kato=s face started to turn pale. I shouted, "Stop!" to the referee, and jumped into the ring. When helio released his hands, Kato collapsed onto the mat, face first. 2 days after this bout, I saw Helio's students marching down a city street carrying a coffin. They were shouting, "Dead Japanese judoka Kato is in this coffin. He got killed by Helio. We ask your support for Judo Master Helio Gracie!"

    After this bout, the popularity of our pro wrestling show declined rapidly. The Japanese whom we encountered on the street murmured, "They must be phonies, losing in such a pathetic manner." Helio issued another challenge, this time to Yamaguchi. Pres. Mizuno of Sao Paulo Newspaper also begged, "Mr. Yamaguchi, please kill Helio, this time." But Yamaguchi seemed reluctant, and asked "Let me think for one night." If he fought a judo match under the Japanese rule, Yamaguchi is superior to Helio both in Tachi-waza and Newaza. But under the Brazilian rule, if Helio got pinned on the ground, all he has to do is to stay calm and be cautious not to get caught in a choke or joint lock, and remain still till the time runs out. Helio could fight to a draw in this way. If he used this tactics, it would be difficult for Yamaguchi to make Helio surrender. I then said to Yamaguchi, "Do not bother to come up with a plan to make Helio submit. I will accept the challenge." Until the day of the bout, we continued pro wrestling shows every other day. 3 days before the bout, local newspaper had a big headline, saying "Kimura is not a Japanese. He seems to be a Cambodian. Helio cannot fight a fake Japanese." I was surprised to see it. I rushed to the Embassy of Japan with my passport, and got a proof that I am a Japanese.

    20,000 people came to see the bout including President of Brazil. Helio was 180cm and 80kg. When I entered the stadium, I found a coffin. I asked what it was. I was told, "This is for Kimura. Helio brought this in." It was so funny that I almost burst into laughter. As I approached the ring, raw eggs were thrown at me. The gong rang. Helio grabbed me in both lapels, and attacked me with O-soto-gari and Kouchi-gari. But they did not move me at all. Now it's my turn. I blew him away up in the air by O-uchi-gari, Harai-goshi, Uchimata, Ippon-seoi. At about 10 minute mark, I threw him by O-soto-gari. I intended to cause a concussion. But since the mat was so soft that it did not have much impact on him. While continuing to throw him, I was thinking of a finishing method. I threw him by O-soto-gari again. As soon as Helio fell, I pinned him by Kuzure-kami-shiho-gatame. I held still for 2 or 3 minutes, and then tried to smother him by belly. Helio shook his head trying to breathe. He could not take it any longer, and tried to push up my body extending his left arm. That moment, I grabbed his left wrist with my right hand, and twisted up his arm. I applied Udegarami. I thought he would surrender immediately. But Helio would not tap the mat. I had no choice but keep on twisting the arm. The stadium became quiet. The bone of his arm was coming close to the breaking point. Finally, the sound of bone breaking echoed throughout the stadium. Helio still did not surrender. His left arm was already powerless. Under this rule, I had no choice but twist the arm again. There was plenty of time left. I twisted the left arm again. Another bone was broken. Helio still did not tap. When I tried to twist the arm once more, a white towel was thrown in. I won by TKO. My hand was raised high. Japanese Brazilians rushed into the ring and tossed me up in the air. On the other hand, Helio let his left arm hang and looked very sad withstanding the pain.'

    Jeff Cook

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    Thanks for posting - I hadn't read that before!

    It gives a very interesting insight into the culture-clash between the Japanese and Brasilians.
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

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    Jeff,

    Great article,I think they both were great fighters in their own right.kimura was head and shoulders ahead of anybody else but helio must have been great also to last 13 minutes with the greatest.


    Just by todays standards anybody that really understands grappling would know how difficult it is to go a simple 10 min grappling superfight match against a top elite player with out getting caught.


    Judo + Jiujitsu = awesome
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

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    That was a nice find Jeff thanks
    Chris McLean
    Martial Arts student

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    It is an interesting read; however, I do have some questions about it. One of my questions is: how the hell do you break the forearm bones while doing udegarami? It is a shoulder crank. This makes me question the authenticity of the translation.

    Jeff Cook

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    Default Ude garami

    Ude garami is not a shoulder crank. Shoulder cranks are forbiden in judo.

    Martin Durette

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemalin66
    Ude garami is not a shoulder crank. Shoulder cranks are forbiden in judo.
    Leaving aside the fact that Helio & Kimura weren't fighting under judo rules, ude garami most certainly is a shoulder crank. Next to heel hooks, it seems to cause more injuries than any other technique I know. Those injuries are always to the shoulder - except, apparently, in the case of Helio Gracie (so Jeff, you raise a good point).

    Somehow the shoulder pressure has been overlooked or ignored by the judo rule-makers.
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemalin66
    Ude garami is not a shoulder crank. Shoulder cranks are forbiden in judo.

    Martin Durette
    Martin, maybe you have never had ude garami done to you. Have someone do it to you and you will immediately see what Mike and I are talking about. It is a HUGELY overlooked myth in judo.

    If you extend the arm and apply pressure, it becomes an elbow lock, but it is NOT classical ude garami when done in that position.

    Jeff Cook

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Cook
    It is an interesting read; however, I do have some questions about it. One of my questions is: how the hell do you break the forearm bones while doing udegarami? It is a shoulder crank. This makes me question the authenticity of the translation.

    Jeff Cook
    The only thing that comes to mind (in relationship to forearm bones)is the possibility getting into the ude-garami by applying pressure to the back of the hand inorder to pry the lock open.Instead of grabbing the wrist for the typical kimura lock,one grabs the back of the hand,this puts enormous amounts of pressure on the wrist causing uke to let go.

    This inreturn can cause pain to run alonngside the forearm bones.I realize I might be stretching it here a little but that is the only thing that comes to mind.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

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    So, ok udegarami...i've tested this one out, and figured out that if done in a certain manner, the pressure does go to the elbow. Imagine Uke lying on his back--Tori mounted or to the side of uke. Uke's arm is bent in an "L" shape next to his head. Imagine uke's hand is in a fist--this helps the illustration. If uke's fist is pointed up--his palm facing the sky--the pressure does seem to go directly to the shoulder. If, however, you turn uke's hand so that the pinky side of his fist is pointed up and apply ude garami--the pressure hits the elbow first, and it sets in the pressure much more quickly than in the other manner.
    This also works when the arm is bent in an "L" shape but next to the body (uke is still on his back)--turn the fist so that the pinky side is up. This is the actual technique that Kimura used, but i believe he did it while Gracie was inside his guard...so in this case (from the bottom) the pinky side is pointed down.
    Last edited by amadus; 26th May 2006 at 15:34.
    J Pettit

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    Maybe, Joel, but I'm still not feeling it. I've done the lock, and had it done on me, from every angle and joint rotation possible. Maybe somebody who is extremely inflexible might feel it that way, perhaps? Or maybe I and the dozens of others I have rolled with are extremely flexible? I don't know, but I won't discount what you are saying. We may just have to remain in disagreement on this one.

    Jeff Cook

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimura
    Finally, the sound of bone breaking echoed throughout the stadium. Helio still did not surrender. His left arm was already powerless. Under this rule, I had no choice but twist the arm again. There was plenty of time left. I twisted the left arm again. Another bone was broken.
    Could it be that the sound that "echoed through the stadium" was cartilage/ligaments popping, rather than bone breaking? The sound is equally nasty, and is much more likely.

    The only locks that I know of that put potential breaking pressure on the bones are bicep or calf-crushes. In all other cases, the ligaments should let go first - although there is always the possiblity that the lock was on at a funny angle or something weird happened (it's impossible to tell from the footage available).
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

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    Well, I do think the majority of the time it does attack the shoulder joint, but i think you can attack both the joints and the elbow will go first because it's a weaker joint. I can always be wrong. In any case, the method that I illustrated is never the one shown in the judo text books, so I would assume that if one applied a "textbook" ude garami, then most definitely, the shoulder is the joint in trouble. So, for the most part we agree.
    J Pettit

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    Speaking of Kimura, there is a part 1 article on him in the new Black Belt magazine. By the same person who did the article on Donn Draeger for the last one.

    Part 2 will be on the Kimura vs Helio Gracie fight.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    I've found that the bigger frame of the uke, the more shoulder is affected. On smaller frame people, you get more reaction at the elbow and insertion point (if i'm using the correct term) of the forearm. I can see vaguely how it would be possible to break the forearm bones - but I don't have an uke i'd like to test it on.
    Rob Thornton

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