Kimura on Helio Gracie - The Plot Thickens

[lemalin66]

I know that i'm off topic Jeff but I must point out your courage being a white belt (a loooonnnng time ago) and having to fight a blackbelt. It has to be a mismatch that must be avoided.

Martin Durette

[taken67]

Actually, he did not "beat" him with that lock. The referee called the match in spite of rules against him doing so - seconds before the end of the fight. Gracie did not tap, and his joint was not damaged, therefore the lock was ineffective.

The referee was biased and broke the rules to give the win to Sak. Too bad, as Sak in my opinion had beat him fairly.

Jeff Cook

Thanks Jeff, didn't know that, I'll have to watch the fight.

[Jeff Cook]

Martin, when I competed in judo the classes were based on weight only at most tournaments I went to. However, I DID see a few white belts do quite well; I saw one white belt beat a black belt in tournament. Some judo coaches should just stick to coaching.

Tommy, I never saw the fight. I did read about the circumstances, however. Supposedly the contract between the two fighters totally forbade a referee stoppage. Gracie had the option to file for a "no contest" but chose not to.

Jeff Cook

[Mateo]

I also noticed that tap. I'm sure the Gracies will overlook it when refering to the fight in years to come.

I'm not anti-Royce. I didn't want to see him tap. But I saw him tap behind McCarthy's right foot while McCarthy was in the process of stopping the fight. McCarthy didn't see it because he was already in the process of stopping the fight. The fight wasn't stopped because of the tap.

You didn't see it or you interpret it differently. That's cool. But I trust my judgement of what I see and I'm comfortable with you trusting your own even if it doesn't agree with mine.

Royler has tapped, too. It isn't a big deal. It's foolish not to tap and ruin your body and training for the ensuing months. Hughes would tap.

Enson Inoue doesn't tap and he took some really career shortening beatings. (i.e. Vonchanchyn) I don't respect him more for that. I just wish that the refs had stepped in earlier for him. (His brother rushed in for him when he was taking too much punishment from Frank Shamrock.)

[Jeff Cook]

Matt, of course you are right, and I apologize. I have been reading various threads on various boards, most of the posts definitely anti-Royce, very few of them reasonable and well-said like yours.

I will ask him next Friday if he tapped - if I can figure out how to phrase it without causing problems, that is.

Jeff Cook

[IronMan]

The problem that alot of people have with McCarthy stepping in is that they thought he did it before the tap, which he did.
It was Big Joe's judgement call, because it looked like Royce might be ko'd pretty soon anyway.

I agree with you guys, it was a smart tap, because if you're on the bottom in that situation you can take some serious and permanent damage.

[Tim Mailloux]

The problem that alot of people have with McCarthy stepping in is that they thought he did it before the tap, which he did.
It was Big Joe's judgement call, because it looked like Royce might be ko'd pretty soon anyway.

I agree with you guys, it was a smart tap, because if you're on the bottom in that situation you can take some serious and permanent damage.

I watched the fight live, and have rewatched the online clip many times. I don't see any tap. I do see Joyce's hands moving a bit, but at the time his skull was bouncing off Matt Hughes fists, elbows and the floor. I also give credit for the ref stopping the fight when he did. Joyce wasn't doing anything, and wasn't even trying to protect himself. Letting the fight go longer would have only caused more damage to a fighter that already had lost. For the record, I am not a fan of Joyce Gracie, and would have loved to see him knocked out. But IMO the fight was stopped at the appropriate time.

One of the ref's main jobs is to protect the fighters, and that is what he was doing. If he didn't stop the fight we would have a whole different bunch of people conplaining that the only reason he let the fight go on in such a ones sided manor was so Highes could really hurt and embarrass Gracie.

The only thing that matters, is that Hughes won in a dominating fashion. The manor in which the fight was stopped is irrealavant.

[MikeWilliams]

Joyce? LOL.

[Tim Mailloux]

Joyce? LOL.

OMG, I cannot believe I did that..... I know it is Royce. My brain is on auto pilot right now, and I spelled it phonetically with out even thinking. My apologies.


I am having a really bad day today, thank good it is almost over!

[MarkF]

You have taken advantage of my good nature and have hijacked this thread to discuss MMA anvd UFC, so I am closing thre thread. Besides, I believe it has run its course in the judo forum, but feel free to discuss post-modern Japanese budo in the Gendai Budo forum lounge. It really is simple to get me to allow off-topic posts by discussion the outcomes of MMA by using judo terminology.


No one is at fault but me so again, pleae bring this subject...Hey, I'll just move it to Gendai Budo myself. I may be cutting off my nose to spite myself, but then It keep the thread open and alllows me to stay out of it.


Have funsies.


Mark

[powerof0ne]

funsies, I hope you don't mind if I use that.

[MarkF]

No, not really. I think that may have come out of a bottle, though.


Mark

[hectokan]

Can anyone speculate as to why this match was contested under grappling rules instead of vale tudo rules?

[powerof0ne]

When this match happened was much Vale Tudo taking place in Brasil? I know that Helio did do some vale tudo matches but were they a few years after this?

[Kevin Geaslin]

I came across this clip on youtube while watching some Daiwado vids, I thought about this thread and figured it might be relevant.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v2wO3dHUYwQ