Shinsengumi... 47 Rōnin... uniforms?

[kennin]

I always was told, it was the Shinsengumi only who wore these specific patterns on their uniforms, as is acknowledged by WIKIPEDIA.



Lately I run into these pictures of the Akō Rōshi though:








I would speculate that the artist depicts the 47 rōnin as being Shinsengumi to express patriotic feelings towards the Tokugawa shōgun and his men.
Weird thing though, is that some of these woodprints go way back in time. The last one was crafted in 1845, about 15 years before the Shinsengumi were established.

Anyone who has any valid explanations to this, please?
Did I misunderstand something? Is it the colors only that were remarkable?

I am not a native English speaker, thus I just might misunderstand the meaning of this part:

The members of the Shinsengumi were highly visible in battle due to their distinctive uniforms. Ordered by Shinsengumi captain Kamo Serizawa, the standard uniform consisted of the haori and hakama over a kimono, with a white cord called a tasuki crossed over the chest and tied in the back. The function of the tasuki is to prevent the sleeves of the kimono from interfering with moving the arms. The uniqueness of the uniform was displayed in the haori, which was colored asagiiro (浅葱色, generally light blue, but can also be light yellow). The haori sleeves were trimmed with "white mountain stripes", resulting in a very flashy outfit, quite unlike the usual browns, blacks, and greys found in warrior clothing. In the midst of a fight, the uniforms of the Shinsengumi provided not only a means of easy identification, but also a highly visible threat towards the enemy.

[John Lovato]

I believe the 47 ronin are wearing fireman coats. Although they look like the shinsengumi coats they are different.

[kennin]

Firemen coats...?

Interesting! Have you got any sources for that, plz?

[John Lovato]

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/jshoaf...ushingura.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Way_of_the_Warrior
(from the above page)
'On a dark and snowy December night (December 14, 1702), disguised as firemen, the 47 men attacked the fortress of Lord Kira. A member of a wealthy family, Kira was surrounded by an armed retinue of 60 samurai bodyguards.'

I think I might also have it in a couple of books, if I get a chance I will look later.

[Brian Owens]

While the Shinsengumi members' uniforms have a "mountain" patern to the sleeves, the colors are depicted as light blue and white.

The Ako Ronin's garments are usually shown as black and white, although not always with the large diagonal patterns.

The black and white colors may be an allegorical reference to the inevitablity of night following day, and death following life.

[Jose Garrido]

Has anyone tried contacting the people from the Tennen Rishin-ryu?

I thought that this was the sword art of the Shin Sen Gumi. They might have the answers.

Jose Garrido

[kennin]

Interesting answers, people! Thank you very much!

Tennen Rishin Ryū? Hmmm... maybe I should look further in that direction!

[kabutoki]

Hi,
you should keep one thought in mind. You are talking about those pictures and dolls as if they were accurate pictures like photographs are today. They are artists renderings of what those clothes and people might have looked like, and in the case of the woodblockprints of the 47 ronin, were made some 150 years after the events took place. There are some older prints but even those are first of all works of art and subject to the artist´s imagination. I am not saying that this always results in the pictures being historically inacurate but you have be careful if you use them to proof something.
I don´t have my notes with me but I think I have read somewhere that the clothes of the shinsengumi might have been inspired by the depictions of the 47 ronin rather than by the actual clothes. The mountain motive is certainly an attractive one but most fireman clothes I have seen were of simpler design.
Somebody should do some reading... :-)

Karsten

[John Seavitt]

You are talking about those pictures and dolls as if they were accurate pictures like photographs are today.

One might also note that a lot of wood block prints were depiciting attire as worn for theatrical productions, that is, costumes. Not the best historical insight ...

John

[Kevin Geaslin]

I always wondered about that pattern also. I always thought it was used solely by the Shinsengumi and other organizations near the Meiji era, but I've also seen 47 Ronin prints showing samurai wearing similar haori.

[DrewS]

I don´t have my notes with me but I think I have read somewhere that the clothes of the shinsengumi might have been inspired by the depictions of the 47 ronin rather than by the actual clothes. The mountain motive is certainly an attractive one but most fireman clothes I have seen were of simpler design.
Somebody should do some reading... :-)

Karsten

FWIW, I believe this was mentioned in either some other article I cannot find at the moment, or perhaps it was from the 2004 TV Taiga drama on NHK. Kondo and Serizawa were personally impressed with the story and wanted their uniforms designed similarly.

Has anyone tried contacting the people from the Tennen Rishin-ryu?

I thought that this was the sword art of the Shin Sen Gumi. They might have the answers.

They might know, or have some personal documents belonging to Kondo Isami (4th Souke of TRR) that might explain.

To call Tennen Rishin Ryu "the sword art of the Shinsengumi" though, I think is a stretch. Part of me says yes, part of me says no. The "yes" part of me is because Kondo (leader of the Ssg and Souke of TRR), Hijikata Toshizou, Okita Soushi, and Inoue Genzaburo were all TRR folks; menkyou and all. Part of me that says no thinks that's neglecting contributions from other ryuha into the Shinsengumi; while Yamanami Keisuke joined TRR, he also had accomplishment in Hokushin Ittou Ryu (as did Toudou Heisuke); Nagakura Shinpachi (and Serizawa) had training in Shinto Munen Ryu, Saitou's true lineage is too cloudy, but many sourcces have pointed to Mugai Ryu, Ono-ha Ittou Ryu, and Mizoguchi-ha Ittou Ryu. Harada Sanosuke came from a school of soujutsu, as did a lesser-known member whose name escapes me...

This is all amatuer speculation, about whether or not we could classify Tennen Rishin Ryu as the ryu of the Shinsengumi. I am sure there are a large number who could intellectually beat me into the ground on the subject.

[Karasu Maru]

The existence of the haori coat of SHINSENGUMI is in history true. Actually, the haori coat of this design was abolished in one or two years after SHINSENGUIMI had been formed. Therefore, the description that they wear this haori coat by the battle of Toba & Fushimi is a mistake though the description that they wear this haori coat at the Ikedaya case is correct.

On the other hand, the haori coat of 47-Ronin is not in history true. It is said that clothes when they attack the Kira residence were poorly dressed. 50 years later, the kabuki and the Joruri tied to them the fireman court first.

At this store, you can purchase the haori coat of SHINSENGUMI which is the same as the movie.
http://muromachi-style.jp/kate1/page6.html