Kosen Judo on an mma forum

[Jeff Cook]

Peter, roger that; we are speculating, and thus discussing.

From judoinfosite, a picture of tate-shihogatame: http://www.judoinfosite.nl/NL/pages/...iho-gatame.htm

Attacks from this position are EXTREMELY easy; in fact, this picture shows an almost-set arm triangle (sangaku) strangle. Sode guruma jime would be very easy from here, as would be jujigatame and udegarami as well.

I consider shiho to be one of many ways to be mounted on your opponent. A difference of opinion. Remember, the mount, even in BJJ, is supposed to be a controlling position, as well as a transitional position. Even in judo, one must be able to transition instantly from one control to another.

Regarding osae, again, a difference of opinion. I consider judo to be a fighting art. Being able to control without being able to seize the initiative is useless. Perhaps that is why the IJF does not classify it as osae?

Jeff Cook

[Jeff Cook]

Hector, please excuse my bad memory. Do you live in Miami? We should hook up and socialize at least once. What school are you currently training out of?

In my mind, judo and BJJ are the same; they are both fighting arts. Their competitive formats have different rules, but they are the same art because the exact same techniques and principles are taught. The training drills are just a bit different, and the emphasis is a bit different. But still, I see them as "kissing cousins."

Your points about stalling are VERY good.

Jeff Cook

[hectokan]

Hector, please excuse my bad memory. Do you live in Miami? We should hook up and socialize at least once. What school are you currently training out of?

Jeff,

I train at Miami dade college (south campus) under Jack williams in judo.In BJJ I have trained at various places in the past.I have trained BJJ under Efrain ruiz and Mike cardoso who eventually teamed up with Marcos & David avellon (all great guys)to form a great competition team in FFA.Today it's harder for me to get down south to FFA for training,I have been training lately a little at Jorge pereira's jiujitsu(rickson black belt)for some great training also.

[dakotajudo]

Attacks from this position are EXTREMELY easy; in fact, this picture shows an almost-set arm triangle (sangaku) strangle. Sode guruma jime would be very easy from here, as would be jujigatame and udegarami as well.

I wouldn't say extremely easy - in the dojo, perhaps, but not so much against an experienced, resisting opponents.

In my one MMA competition to date I got mount 3 times, but couldn't pull off juji - my opponent had some BJJ training and knew how to counter. (I did rush the first attempt - the ref was standing over my shoulder telling me he'd restart if we didn't start moving - kinda annoyed my, this guy was getting shots in from standing).

I use my one MMA match for an example, 'cause I don't think I've ever used tate (or mount) in judo competition - my holds have generally come directly from the throw - i.e. kesa from koshi-guruma, kami from yoko-wakare.

Ude-garami is also, I find, easier to counter when attempted from mount than from other osae positions. I suspect the sankaku would be as well, but we don't drill than one much.

My students, so far, have had more success escaping and countering from the mount, or ground and pound, than getting subs - at least in MMA.

In the judo comps, it's been safer to just get the pin.

I consider shiho to be one of many ways to be mounted on your opponent. A difference of opinion. Remember, the mount, even in BJJ, is supposed to be a controlling position, as well as a transitional position. Even in judo, one must be able to transition instantly from one control to another.

I'm not sure how you're using shiho - the other shiho holds I wouldn't call mounts - yoko = side control, kami = north-south.

I'm a fan of situational drills, and since the mount is a common MMA situation, we drill this a lot (I should clarify - in the past few months I've had a couple-three students actively training for MMA, so my training methods have changed from the traditional judo). For these drills, I rarely teach tate-shiho.

For my purposes, I prefer to use the tate-shiho to refer to a specific hold, while I use mount to refer to a situation.

I'm not much of fan of the mount as a transitional position - probably my least favorite. Anything I'd attack from the mount, I prefer to attack from yoko; I feel I have more mobility to respond to uke's attempts counter.

If I take mount, I plan on staying for a while - mostly to take a break and let uke wear himself out. When I want to hunt a sub, I typically switch out to yoko or kesa. (And I'm getting a bit off the original subject; I'm just thinking about what I want to cover in class tonight - have a couple fairly new students who haven't had much for basics; started when we were getting a couple folks ready for competition. Now there's a lull in competition, I can go simpler).

Regarding osae, again, a difference of opinion. I consider judo to be a fighting art. Being able to control without being able to seize the initiative is useless.

Sure, judo is a fighting art; people in my club have been using it quite well for MMA competition.

But not everybody I train comes to fight. And judo, to be complete in my opinion, should also include a not-fighting component.

I had this conversation with one student, who works in law enforcement (Sheriff's office, I think - he's still in college). My advice to him is, during randori, to focus on control and not worry about submissions (he was just throwing locks on, kinda willy-nilly).

Simply put, I don't think a person will ever need to stand in front of a judge and explain how they came to give another person a concussion, or a dislocated elbow, if they know how to work osae.

Being able to control without being able to seize the initiative is useless.

Wouldn't call it useless - it's all about context.

In a time-limited competition, taking initiative is important.

But in other situations, well ...

One I though about, a few years back - I live near a lake, and one summer, going for my afternoon run, I noticed a pickup parked near the beach; a guy in the pickup, eating peanuts and watching the girls on the beach. A couple times, I saw the pickup leave and follow a car leaving the beach, when the car was driven by a solo girl.

Now, I did get the license number and visited the Sheriff's office with this information; never saw him again. But, during my runs, I considered what I would do, if I saw this individual actually get squirrelly with one of the girls on the beach.

I figured I could get him down, keep him down, for the 10-15 min. it would take for help to come (we're about 12 miles out). I could justify that. I don't think I could justify beating him cross-eyed. And, what if I got juji-gatame - is he going to tap? Do I pull it 'til something pops?

I don't like to get to wrapped up in one mode of fighting; I like to keep my options open. It's the same reason, really, that while most of our time is spent drilling specifically for competition, I do like to through in some alternative scenarios - like this, or multiple attackers.

You lose a bit on the competitive edge, but makes one more rounded.

Perhaps that is why the IJF does not classify it as osae?

The IJF has made changes in osae for various reasons. Most recently, if I understand things correctly, a change was made to eliminate a juji-gatame attack that also met the osae criteria; this is reference to shiho or kesa position rule. Unfortunately, this also eliminated what I first learned as ura-gatame (not Kawaishi's) - one I like a lot from maki-komi.

[Jeff Cook]

Peter, thanks for the extensive and detailed reply. It seems we agree on some significant points. For instance, I too much prefer yoko as a transitional position. But because I am weak transitioning from tate, I work transitioning from tate, and I have become much better at it, as well as escaping out from under it.

As far as pulling off shime and kansetsu from tate, we simply have different experiences. For me, my classical jujitsu and judo students, and my fellow BJJ practitioners, it is generally pretty easy to do against a resisting opponent.

I also agree with your assessment of judo and the non-fighting opponents. We always say "position before submission." For LE, they have to achieve a position that protects themselves, refuses the bad guy access to his weapons, allows the officer to handcuff the bad guy, and gives the officer mobility to break contact instantly if necessary. However, the hold you describe while inside the guard does NOT meet all of those criteria.

Regarding your citizens arrest scenario, each state has different laws/rules that govern the legal way to go about doing that. Generally, you may use the minimum force necessary to defend. You may hold a suspect for arrest. Injuring them in the process is highly contextual. There are appropriate control methods that allow you to control through pain compliance. Or you could just put him to sleep with a well-set strangle.

Jeff Cook

[MarkF]

Peter, the "mount" is called shihogatame; I saw it utilized frequently as a winning osaekomi waza in shiai.

The "mount" is called dojime, at least the top mount is. If you are speaking of the nount in judo that is what it would be called. Shihogatame is not a top mount in any position.

This has been a very interesting thread. That is what I really wanted to say.


Mark

[hectokan]

Top Mount = Tate-shiho-gatame

[Jeff Cook]

The "mount" is called dojime, at least the top mount is. If you are speaking of the nount in judo that is what it would be called. Shihogatame is not a top mount in any position.

This has been a very interesting thread. That is what I really wanted to say.


Mark

Mark, since you are on top in tate shihogatame, how can it not be a top mount? Also, since dojime is the act of locking the legs and squeezing the torso, which can be done readily from the guard, how the heck do you do that from a top mount position?

Maybe you have it backwards?

Jeff Cook

[Shinobi]

The mount is called "Uma-Nori" in at least two style in the Bujinkan. It translates to "horse mount" as if your riding a horse. Those of you who have done drills where uke tries to escape the mount and all you can do is try and keep the mount position will see where the name comes from.

The guard is called "seitai", not sure if this is a correct term but I have never seen it used elsewhere except from a Kosen/Bujinkan teacher.

The standing guard was poorly seen in January on UFC Fight Night on Spike when Silva from Brazil fought Tim Sylvia. Silva was just holding on to prevent from being pounded and made Tim's shorts fall down. He did ok but if he got higher onto the ribs it would have been better. In some styles in the Bujinkan you jump up and do dô-jime and either sutemi or strike the guy, its not a postion you want to "hang-out" in or risk getting slammed on your back. Would really hurt on the dirt or pavement but on the mat it would still hurt but as many of you have seen you can survive the slam or get knocked out from it.