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Thread: Koryu Bujutsu & Seitei Iaido

  1. #16
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    Missing the point entirely folks.

    First, for Mike, a beginner will do what he's first taught as a default mode, so if he's taught koryu first his seitei (of whatever flavour, ZNIR, ZNKR or the other organizations) will show a lot of koryu, if he's taught seitei first his koryu will show that by default until he can separate them. No big problem, just a fact of how one learns. How could it possibly be otherwise? You do what you were taught until you're taught otherwise. I know of no example of a line of koryu that was "seitei-ized" and no example where a seitei was "koryu-ized" to any meaningful extent.

    If we're talking ZNKR and you're in the ZNKR I'd be happy to expound privately on comments about where seitei came from and the idea of seitei contaminating koryu. If you're not in the ZNKR the discussion is meaningless and pointless.

    Secondly, to those who can't figure out why one would do seitei if one does a koryu, the answer is equally simple. Because you're in the ZNKR or the ZNIR. No other reason makes any sense at all. If you're not in an organization that has a seitei set, you ought not be doing it (because there's no sense doing it if you don't have to do it... the LESS you do the better for you) and, more importantly, you don't have to discuss or worry about it. It's not your problem is it?

    Finally, Zen Ken Ren iai or Zen I Ren Iai as "starter kata"???? Are you kidding? Both these sets are extremely difficult to do, and a pain in the !!! to teach beginners. Omori (Shoden) is designed to teach beginners in a consistant and sensible way using correct adult learning principles (building on acquired skills to create more advanced skills, repetition etc.) I repeat, Seitei is a monster to try to teach and to learn and the only reason it is taught first is that it's used as the basis of testing in the ZNKR so you start with it.

    Folks a seitei gata is "owned" by the organization that creates it and discussing it's merits or faults when you're not a member of that organization is pointless... one would just as fruitfully discuss the merits of "pick koryu name and insert here" and it's influence on some other koryu if one practices them together... or the influence of judo on aikido practice. Finally, if you ARE in an organization that has a seitei gata, and you're not at the top of that organization, you can certainly have your opinion on the value of the practice, but you aren't going to have any meaningful input unless you're debating with the top guys.

    Put in a nutshell, beginners (and armchair punters ;-) ) worry about contamination, seniors don't.

    Happy Canada Day and condolances to NFLD.
    Kim Taylor

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Keding
    ...It seems to me that the idea behind the seitei kata was to have a set that would be universal to all ryu - a standardization that would allow ryus to have some common ground...
    That's not my understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Keding
    ...have an introductory set that could be used by kendo students without having to learn from any particular ryu and a standardized way to judge and apply dan ranks.
    Yep. That's what I believe is the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Keding
    ...There was no seitei kata before the late 1960's so why are they so important now that some schools make them a prerequisite for the studying of a traditional sword form? I learned the seitei kata along side the other forms of MJER.
    If someone knows why this is, how it happened and why I'd be most appreciative for some clarification.
    Possibly because so many swordsmen nowadays were Kendoka first? Just a guess.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  3. #18
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    I think its also down to the teachers in the local dojos... no seitei was done in the North East of England, just MJER, until I and a couple of friends decided we would learn it and asked Fujii sensei to come up and teach. Although I have since stopped, the local dojo still carry on teaching it and they are doing quite well. You have what you have access to, and not a lot else...
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

  4. #19
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    Actually, I believe that Seitei Gata was created because our society today pushes us to want to be "tested."

    Back when learning to use a sword was a good idea to stay alive (assuming you were samurai, of course), sword-handling was a martial skill, rather than an art. You were tested for proficiency only by your sensei. And assuming you lived through your fights & battles, you pretty well knew that you were competent.

    But as we don't wear or use swords today outside the dojo, iaidoka in the sport of iaido had no way to compare their skill levels. So in the 1960s, the "original intentions in creating Seitei Iai was to produce a standard that could used for gradings nationally and later internationally." That quote is from Hajime Baba, by the way. Why do people climb mountains, jump out of perfectly good airplanes, & ski-board down vertical slopes? Because they feel they have to "prove" themselves by living through the experience.

    How can an iaidoka test him/herself against others who have learned different ryu? In short, they can't. My wife & I study MJER, while our good friend studies Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu - what do these ryu have in common? Other than the basic motions of nukitsuke, kirioroshi, & noto, not much. But when we are tested in Seitei Iai, there is a leveling effect, as we are all performing the same waza.

    I agree with Jason that learning Seitei Iai does serve as a sort of apprenticeship in that new deshi are just learning to handle their iaito, but also agree with Kim that it sure doesn't make a lot of sense when you should be building on acquired skills. Maeda-Sensei made the decision to stop teaching Seitei Iai a few years ago, & now teaches only MJER waza. But he also adds in several Seitei Iai & other ryu waza that fit well. For example, he has us learn & practice three ukenagashi - MJER, Seitei Iai, & MSR - because maai progresses from quite far to extremely close, & that trains us to perceive what teki is doing & to react accordingly. And Soetetsuki fits well in Chuden. And so on.

    This doesn't really address Alexanian-Sensei's original question about crossover between & among koryu, as much as it does the use of appropriate waza in teaching. I found Seitei Iai to be a lot more confusing than MJER Shoden, Batto-ho, Chuden, etc., but that of course might well be because I was first learning Seitei Iai as a brand-new deshi. I do find MJER waza to be lot more consistent, as per Kim's comments, but am not sure that I would vote to eliminate Seitei Iai, if given a choice.
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
    Fencing Master/NRA Instructor

    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Hawaii
    ... "original intentions in creating Seitei Iai was to produce a standard that could used for gradings nationally and later internationally." ...
    Ah, but gradings by and for whom? The Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei.

    It is my position that the ZNKR Seitei Iai Kata were intended for Kendoka, not for practitioners of koryu, as the latter had / have their own curricula and grading standards. The fact that some koryu practitioners now also practice Zen Ken Iai, or that some who practice the Seiteigata don't do Kendo, doesn't change the original intent.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Hawaii
    Actually, I believe that Seitei Gata was created because our society today pushes us to want to be "tested."
    It wasn't created by our society.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  7. #22
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    Well I guess I'm one of those guys caught up in the logic if aprenticeship.

    I'm learning Seitei Iai and Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo from the same sensei. He has both Seitei iai rank and Muso Shinden-ryu rank. As I understand it, I wont be doing Muso Shinden-ryu until I've gone through all seitei and spent "some time" with it.

    So I guess my sensei feels seitei is a good way to get a solid foundation on which to build on...and who am I to disagree?
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

  8. #23
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    Default Arigatou Gozaimashita (and a New Question)!

    Greetings everyone.

    I would like to express my sincere thanks to all who responded to this thread and gave their opinions. Your various viewpoints and input have given me much "grist for the mill", as it were, and will aid me greatly in my further research on this topic.

    On a different note...

    I would like to hear from any of you to whom the following question might apply, as it is the subject of another bit of research I am doing. This particular point deals with language and communication and I am curious how it is dealt with in other circles, Koryu or otherwise.

    For those of you whose primary Sensei are Japanese, and who speak little or no English, what means have you employed to overcome this hurdle? The obvious answer, of course, is to undertake an intensive study of Japanese in order to communicate with them one-on-one, but I am curious as to whether anyone else has come up with a different method. For example, one could employ a translator, but that would require the translator to be intimately acquainted with the "technical jargon" of the Budo/Bujutsu environment.

    Any and all thoughts, opinions or ideas are welcome...

    Many thanks in advance for your assistance!
    Michael Gennan Alexanian
    General Manager & Head Instructor
    United States Tamiya Ryu Iaijutsu
    Michigan Honbu Dojo


    "Do not regret being ignored; regret being ignorant."
    Ryuko

  9. #24
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    Learning by example is an old and tried method. Even if you understand the language. I've been training under japanese sensei without being able to speak with them - and it sharpens your ability to learn by observation.

    In the koryu I've experienced, most of the instruction is done physically - the teacher shows you where you go wrong and where to improve by taking advantage of your openings, or by physically altering your stance etc.
    Sometimes a bokken slammed into your side can say more than a thousand words

    Of course, without a translator it will be impossible to understand the more subtle aspects of a school - and it will not be possible to understand the historical reasons for the techniques being as they are today.
    Yours friendly,

    K. Sandven


    Blog: My Life In Budo

  10. #25
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    I manage quite well for iai...however its the nights out that eventually get to you where conversation is limited. Still entertaining, as it took us three hours to work out this visiting japanese guy bred dogs. Getting drunker by the minute seemed to help however.
    We have a translator we use as well as some japanese teachers/students who come along for the training who have broken english. My 'Iai Japanese', which includes saya, kiritsuke etc (as well as dame, baka), normally gets me through a session with sensei.
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

  11. #26
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    It depends on what you want to get out of it Michael. As with most things of course.

    Here's two ends of the continuum I suppose:

    Just want to learn the art? I don't think any sort of translator is necessary, and in fact any translation can often be a hindrance. What you mostly need is to learn "here", "not here", "this way" "not like this" and so on. Too much talk and the brain gets in the way of the eyes. Paying attention is MUCH more important than knowing what sensei is saying, which is usually pretty much what you hear every day in the dojo anyway.

    If you want to learn Japanese culture.... move to Japan, it's a lot more efficient than learning martial arts and Japanese over here. Imagine someone trying to learn North American culture by studying, say, Lacrosse or basketball and taking English lessons in Nagoya. A skewed version of the culture at best.

    If you're interested in what sensei has to say about the art (and who isn't) than you get along with a translator as best you can. To learn the esoterica of budo or to catch the subtleties of this or that philosophical argument you'd better have a translator that is not only fluent in both Japanese and English (and I mean fluent, not someone who can tell you how to get to the train station) and is familiar with the esoterica that you're trying to discuss. Otherwise it isn't going to work. It's not going to work if you're learning Japanese yourself either. If these things were easy to communicate we'd already know them... and those things that are easy to communicate... we do already know. If a Japanese sensei has a problem explaining a point of philosophy to another Japanese, it isn't likely to get across to us at all, no matter how well we know the language or how good the translator is.

    Of course I could be wrong about this and Japanese may actually be a simple to learn but highly accurate language for getting ideas across and I am just too dim to understand that. :-)

    One thing about the practicalities, in this area we've always been taught by and had native Japanese speakers in the dojo so the problem of culture and translation etc. has never actually come up. The Japanese in Canada seem to see no great need for us to become Japanese or to learn the Japanese culture in order to gain the benefits of the martial arts. It seems to be enough that we're sincere and that we work hard. What things we need to know (pour beer for sensei, shut up and practice) we pick up pretty easily by association.

    Kim Taylor

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Taylor
    The Japanese in Canada seem to see no great need for us to become Japanese or to learn the Japanese culture in order to gain the benefits of the martial arts. It seems to be enough that we're sincere and that we work hard. What things we need to know (pour beer for sensei, shut up and practice) we pick up pretty easily by association.
    I'd go one further and say they're mostly pretty bemused by all the Japanophiles and consider that we've got a perfectly good culture here, why do we want to absorb theirs?
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  13. #28
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    Since I live and train in Japan now this point hold particular relevance.

    When I came here one year ago my Japanese language skills were next to nothing. My previous training in Iaido had left me with an array of 'budo terminology' which was utterly irrelevant to everyday life in Japan.

    (Actually 一本目 日本目 三本目 was a useful introduction to pon, hon, bon.)

    Anyway, I started training in the local koryu some weeks after arriving.

    I was surprised to find that one of my sempai spoke a tiny bit of English. Soke then placed him in charge of looking after me.

    Primarily learning required little or no speaking at all. It was a matter of copying what was demonstrated to me, and being physically corrected by the people teaching me. Generally in the dojo nobody really speaks most of the time.

    As time progressed, my Japanese language improved, and I found that the major benefit from this was not really an increase in what I understood from training.

    Rather I found that being able to talk with the people who practiced the ryu led me to be more accepted and involved with the ryu itself. The attitude kind of changed from 'who is this wierd foreigner' to 'this is Alex - a member of the ryu'. This was also influenced by the effort I put into training of course.

    By the time I need to understand deeper explanations I hope my Japanese will be good enough to cope. Probably not actually.
    Alex Bradshaw

    bradshaw.jp

  14. #29
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    I agree entirely with Alex.
    When I began training here I could speak basic Japanese only. Enough to get me a nice introduction and basic understanding in class.. But then most of what I needed to know was shown to me rather than explained to me in depth. Since I have stayed here my Japanese has become good enough to follow all instructions in class and although I may miss some things, the majority can be picked up fairly easily I think.. Besides.. If you make a mistake and keep making it, sooner or later someone wil just show you why you're doing it wrong.
    Since I have been here a while I now get the chance to teach basic waza to the new guys here.. That too has been an experience. Far harder than I thought it would be.. But again, the basics are BODY language. Not verbal.. So it works okay. Finer points perhaps cannot be explained. But at this level that works okay.
    Regards.
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

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    Alex, you either have the most understanding dojo-mates & sempai I've ever heard about, or they just figured that speaking wouldn't help much .

    Our Japanese Sensei speaks excellent English (thank goodness!), but talks to us constantly as we practice. Some of what he says is simple corrections, but a lot more is explaining exactly why we're performing the waza the way he tells us. I consider us deshi very lucky that Sensei is willing to take the time to give us the background of the ryu so that we're not just "dancing" through the movements.
    Ken Goldstein
    --------------------------------
    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
    Fencing Master/NRA Instructor

    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

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