Likes Likes:  0
Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 92

Thread: Koryu Bujutsu & Seitei Iaido

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Guelph Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    312
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    We've got lots and lots of beginners who know all about why they're doing what they're doing... they just can't do it. Thing is, they've got English speaking sensei and English language books to explain it in detail, and they devour it all but until they've spent the time with their mouths shut on the floor... well you get the idea if you've spent a decade in the arts.

    My smarter and more senior students actually tell me to shut up and let them practice when I start to EXPLAIN things. ALL my native Japanese students tune me out when I start to talk, without exception.

    Kim Taylor


    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Hawaii
    Our Japanese Sensei speaks excellent English (thank goodness!), but talks to us constantly as we practice. Some of what he says is simple corrections, but a lot more is explaining exactly why we're performing the waza the way he tells us. I consider us deshi very lucky that Sensei is willing to take the time to give us the background of the ryu so that we're not just "dancing" through the movements.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Seattle WA
    Posts
    737
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    I tell students a lot of information sometimes, sometimes I don't. Why? Because it's a way I can tell if they are practicing outside class and absorbing the details I do tell them.

    Oh, wait, that's not true, I'm not using it as a means to tell if students are doing what they should work on their own and coming back to me with questions and showing me the physical progress they have made by self practice outside the dojo. No, I'm not doing that at all.

    I'm doing it because I'm being a lazy butt and avoiding having to do anything physical myself and am killing time until we hit the pub for beers after class.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Guelph Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    312
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Yamamoto
    I'm doing it because I'm being a lazy butt and avoiding having to do anything physical myself and am killing time until we hit the pub for beers after class.
    Cripes Neil, there are some things that students really don't need to know!!!

    Kim.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    243
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Being in Japan right now for the first time has been a really interesting experience. Yagyu Koichi-sensei speaks English well, yet when he is teaching me, it is still in Japanese. Only when I really look absolutely clueless as to what he is trying to correct does he give me a basic translation. Not that that really has any relevance to this conversation..


    My Japanese, like many foreigners who come over here, is next to nothing. But naturally, Ive picked some up through osmosis, so occasionally I hear a few words I recognize when Yagyu Nobuharu-sensei sits everyone down at the end of keiko and talks about whatever is on his mind.



    But as has been said, even when I am paired with sempai who speak only nihongo, I feel I am still able to learn just as effectively by really paying attention to their body language and just WATCHING what they are doing.


    Regards,
    - Alex Dale

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Urbana, IL
    Posts
    74
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Neighbors,

    I think that the language barrier is only a problem for certain types of learners. People who respond well to being shown or having something demonstrated for them usually don't find as big a problem in not knowing Japanese. Someone who needs to hear the explanation and translate it in their own mind to movements would be in serious trouble and they would be at a serious disadvantage in their training.

    I think that this is actually a problem in many dojos here in the States. Many instructors don't take their students' learning approaches into consideration. When I travel I often visit other dojos and am appalled when I see long lengthy explanations of a kata but no detailed physical demonstration. (Would that be do as I say not as I don't do?) I also see that many instructors can't deal with various learning disabilities or variant ways of processing information or attention problems such as ADD. I've seen kids who are obviously hyper active or ADD being yelled at because they can't pay attention to long speeches that serve no purpose in my mind other than to reinforce that the teacher enjoys the sound of their own voice.
    Push ups given to a kid who can not help their lack of concentration is a travesty.

    Enough said,
    Dan Keding
    Storyteller - Author - Musician
    Iaidoka MJER

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Darlington, UK
    Posts
    1,019
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    I have quite a useful pairing for training with a friend of mine.... I see things really quickly and get the point across to him, but have poor long term memory. He is the reverse, so between us we usually do ok together when we go over!
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,147
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidokan
    I have quite a useful pairing for training with a friend of mine.... I see things really quickly and get the point across to him, but have poor long term memory. He is the reverse, so between us we usually do ok together when we go over!
    Thats just spooky..It's the same thing where I train (jodo). My partner always remembers the long-term instructions where as I keep forgetting..Together we work great though!
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    6,227
    Likes (received)
    118

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred27
    Thats just spooky..It's the same thing where I train (jodo). My partner always remembers the long-term instructions where as I keep forgetting..Together we work great though!
    At my first grading I got "brain freeze" during the kumitachi. My partner was able to do an amazing job leading me to the correct begining of each kata with subtle -- and sometimes not so subtle -- eye movements.

    We both passed.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Urbana, IL
    Posts
    74
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Neighbors,

    I know what you mean about "brain freeze". In every single set of MJER there is one kata that I cannot for the life of me remember its name. I know how to do it, where it comes in the sequence but the name leaves my mind in a flurry of happy, ignorant bliss. I usually cover up by turning to a lower rank and asking them - of course I mask it as though I'm just testing their own knowledge. Actually I usually just admit I can't remember and go on.
    Dan Keding
    Storyteller - Author - Musician
    Iaidoka MJER

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    East Lansing, Michigan USA
    Posts
    29
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gendzwil
    I'd go one further and say they're mostly pretty bemused by all the Japanophiles and consider that we've got a perfectly good culture here, why do we want to absorb theirs?
    Greetings everyone,

    Neil Gendzwil (bless his kokoro) has raised a very good point here, and one which it might be nice to get some further discussion going on.

    Many times, people who get involved with "things Japanese" as a lifelong committment (not just Bujutsu/Budo, but other traditional Japanese cultural arts as well) face the temptation/desire to 'go native', as it were, and re-invent their entire life around the Japanese model. One possible direction this discussion could go in is the one mentioned by Neil above: "we've got a pretty good culture here, why do we want to absorb theirs?"

    Going a bit deeper, this question presents itself: "Why do I find the Japanese culture/lifestle so appealing (more so than my own cutural environment) that I am ready to throw myself, body and soul, into a major re-working of my personal lifestyle? In other words, am I so dissatisfied with my own culture/country that such a lifestyle shift is necessary for my own peace of mind?"

    It will be most interesting to see what thoughts and opinions surface on this topic!
    Michael Gennan Alexanian
    General Manager & Head Instructor
    United States Tamiya Ryu Iaijutsu
    Michigan Honbu Dojo


    "Do not regret being ignored; regret being ignorant."
    Ryuko

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Urbana, IL
    Posts
    74
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Michael,

    Interesting observation but one that I think has some answers - stress the "some" part of that statement.

    As far as the martial culture of Japan and other Asian countries I think that part of the appeal is the lack of organized martial arts in Western culture. In this country except for the Native American people our martial culture is firmly in the era of the gun. European martial culture exists but not in the same varied, organized and ethno-centered way as in Asia. Any person who is interested in self defense gravitates toward Asian open hand arts, their equivalent almost not existent among Western nations. Any person who is interested in the warrior culture also sees Asia as a more logical expression of that ideal. Yes in the West we have our martial heroes - Charlamagne, The Vikings, the code of chivalry, King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table - but they have mostly been consigned to folktales and legend while the spirit of the samurai lives in on, perhaps only in a small way, but it does live on in the physical manifestation that is the martial arts. Once one becomes an admirer of the martial spirit of Japan I think that they also come to appreciate the other aspects of the Japanese culture and learn to look in wonder at the art of taking the simple - flower arranging, calligraphy, etc. - and turning it into an art.

    I'm not saying that the culture of the West is lacking, not at all. What I am saying is that the aspects found in Japanese arts - both martial and non - appeal to a certain type of person. Once one becomes immersed in a martial art it seems a short and logical step to explore and become an appreciative admirer of other arts from that culture.

    Respectfully,
    Dan Keding
    Storyteller - Author - Musician
    Iaidoka MJER

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Breda
    Posts
    6
    Likes (received)
    0

    Post Seitei and the Ryu.

    Seitei kata has become a sort of sword dance in the last years. People organize all kind of contests and championships in "the art". This attitude has not influenced the ryu in any sense, I think.

    Is has had another effect however.

    In the last five years schools of iaido have been looking outside of their schools at the other old ryu where the iai or batto was only a part of the total system. A lot of schools have tried to incorporate the old ryu into their teachings. I have seen schools here in Holland that incorporate old ryu like shinkage and katori.

    They have failed miserably in that attempt. Their view of what sword handling is and was is very clouded by their presumptions of their own art. They think that the seitei is the basis for all sword handling. They fail to see the point in the essence of the ryu. Every ryu had a different approach to handling of the weapon. Therefore it is wrong to presume one can maintain seitei attitude an postures in the exercise of an old ryu.

    However this is what happens a lot, they copy a style and make a new form of seitekata out of it. The result is a copy of the movements with their own interpretation which is totally wrong.

    They do not seem to get the point. In koryu batto had a goal, to draw the sword before attack, or long before the attack. Doing iai nice and slow standing like there is a stick up your *** has nothing to do with the essence. You draw to fight. After the sword is draw their is no iai or batto, only kenjutsu. Iai is a part of the ryuha and cannot be practiced alone, to understand the thing one must practice the whole ryu.

    So it has not influenced the old ryu but the way some people see the ryu. They have the wrong presumptions and ideas about it.

    Its a shame.

  13. #43
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kagoshima
    Posts
    124
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gennan 53
    Greetings everyone,

    Neil Gendzwil (bless his kokoro) has raised a very good point here, and one which it might be nice to get some further discussion going on.

    Many times, people who get involved with "things Japanese" as a lifelong committment (not just Bujutsu/Budo, but other traditional Japanese cultural arts as well) face the temptation/desire to 'go native', as it were, and re-invent their entire life around the Japanese model. One possible direction this discussion could go in is the one mentioned by Neil above: "we've got a pretty good culture here, why do we want to absorb theirs?"

    Going a bit deeper, this question presents itself: "Why do I find the Japanese culture/lifestle so appealing (more so than my own cutural environment) that I am ready to throw myself, body and soul, into a major re-working of my personal lifestyle? In other words, am I so dissatisfied with my own culture/country that such a lifestyle shift is necessary for my own peace of mind?"

    It will be most interesting to see what thoughts and opinions surface on this topic!
    Well I'm sure we all know that most Japanese people firstly have no idea what we practice, and the rare people that do simply think that we are strange for doing it.

    I guess its telling of the appeal of foreign cultures when we find great interest in traditional Japanese culture that most of modern Japan is only too ready to forget.

    Its easy to take small chunks of traditional Japanese culture and absorb it into our own lifestyle in the West.

    For example, many people think they have a clear grasp of the sempai/kohai system in the dojo. When that system is applied in the whole of society as a deeply rooted structure of hierarchy, it is rather different.

    Of course we see it in reverse here in Japan too. Contemporary Western culture is absorbed and reinvented in the Japanese mould.

    I think we rarely ever shed our cultural baggage to be fair. I just do what interests me. It doesn't make me any more 'Japanese' or less English.

    I think even coming here and becoming part of a community does not rule out the fact that I am still culturally and ethnically English.

    和洋両道

    Humbly....
    Alex Bradshaw

    bradshaw.jp

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Darlington, UK
    Posts
    1,019
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    I also reckon the average japanese probably looks at other japanese who do iaido (in any shape or form) in much the same way we look at, say, re-enactors... with a slightly bemused expression. What they think of foreigners doing it probably reflects what I think of japanese Elvis imitators who can't sing...

    Just an observation, but I am seeing a lot more interest in classical english martial arts such as archery with traditional longbows, rapier and dagger, different swords etc...maybe a resurgence is on the way??
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Wollongong, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    54
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidokan
    I also reckon the average japanese probably looks at other japanese who do iaido (in any shape or form) in much the same way we look at, say, re-enactors... with a slightly bemused expression. What they think of foreigners doing it probably reflects what I think of japanese Elvis imitators who can't sing...
    I would have to differ on that - partly since Japan has reenactors (not to mention the casual ones just for annual festivals) whereas cycling around town with a swordbag or people with (the very distinctive) naginata bags on the train were a normal enough thing....

    In the country of cosplay and Harajuku running around in a hakama is nothing.

    For most Japanese I have been introduced to the foreigner doing iai is a handy thing when meeting non budo types - it gives them the essential topic of conversation on introduction and venue for the obligatory exchange of compliments about how good you must be and modesty about how good you are not (and often with the over 30s they can then relate it to discussion of how they did kendo/judo at school..). Jo was sometimes even better - except for the police they didn't know what it is and so could ask questions and make suitable impressed noises. The only odd thing is except for ZNKR grading tests I have never had a Japanese really ask why I do it (which is just as well since I have no real answer except I enjoy it).

    Aden
    Aden Steinke
    University of Wollongong Kendo club
    http://www.kendo-wollongong.com/

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •