Likes Likes:  0
Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 92

Thread: Koryu Bujutsu & Seitei Iaido

  1. #46
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    260
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    What is the pull, for me, of Japanese culture? This is a question I ask myself almost daily. Interestingly reading Alex's (ZealUK--his handle still identifies with Old Blighty at least) post just makes me incredibly JEALOUS of the fact that he is living in Kagoshima and practising Jigen Ryu. And no it's not so much the Jigen Ryu thing (although it would be fascinating and incredibly rewarding), it is the Kagoshima thing, for I love Japanese culture and kendo in particular, but Kagoshima is my second home-town and I miss it terribly. This was not something I built up from reading Donn Draeger or Gorinosho, it happened after I got to Japan to do kendo. And it's been 13 years since I lived there. Why? I have no idea but I'm still wondering.

    Maybe it's past lives. Maybe, as it's popular to say in Australia since we don't really have our "own" culture, we are, at heart, nomads who are not always fullfilled by the culture of the place of our birth, an accident we could not control.

    OTOH I recognise that had I been born Japanese, I would almost certainly have rebelled and not had anything to do with "Dento Bunka", because at heart I am anti-establishment, anti-patriarchy, anti-violence, anti-conservatism, etc, etc, etc. And budo and kendo are pillars of these medieval mindsets. So if I was Japanese I would probably be playing soccer, or have emigrated to Australia by now and have become a documentary filmmaker!

    It's an almost unsolveable koan. But at least I know enough now to ask the question.

    b

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    West Midlands, UK
    Posts
    2,054
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    In my MA practice I am surrounded by people who, despite their denials, want to be more Japanese. They get into *anything* Japanese - their houeses are filled with art, bonsai, anime, swords etc. Not knocking that, but sometimes it can go a bit far.

    However, one thing I enjoyed when practicing in Japan was being in a private dojo belonging to the head of the ryu, working my arse off, yet not being Japanese. It felt good to be allowed to do that as an Englishman, an outsider to the Japanese culture.

    Alex - you get that?
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Saskatoon, SK, Canada
    Posts
    1,526
    Likes (received)
    58

    Default

    A few years ago I was at a party at my sensei's house, with a few guests visiting from Japan. We were all sitting around the table drinking beer so of course I poured for our guests. They all looked surprised that I knew the etiquette. Then I poured for myself, and they made gestures to pour for me. I said, "that's OK, I'm not Japanese", which just busted my sensei up. And that about sums up how we approach it. I know enough to not appear like a total knob, but I'm not married to it. Sensei, and most other Japanese I've met, are perfectly fine with this approach. You can appreciate and enjoy something without giving yourself over. On that path lies silliness.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  4. #49
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kagoshima
    Posts
    124
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Ben, you are quite right. Kagoshima is a wonderful place. I think its possible for foreigners to come here with no appreciation of Japanese culture, and still fall in love with this city. Of course I'm biased.

    Perhaps living in Japan for any extended period merits a greater acceptance of general Japanese culture and etiquette. While I cherish my Englishness, I am still aware that I have to follow certain social norms living in Japan. I have no problem with this for the mostpart.

    Of course Japan is not the most accepting nation for foreign customs and culture. Everything that is imported into Japan is given a Japanese 'twist' and is rarely left alone. If one should protest against doing something because it is disagreeable or not necessary in one's own culture, the most often heard response is 'but this is Japan'. Having said this there is a great deal of leniancy for foreigners, as we simply may not understand all of the delicate intricacies of Japanese culture.

    Those people that live in the West and feverishly try to adopt everything Japanese are kind of missing the point in my opinion. Should they live in Japan for any period I think their obsession would be somewhat dulled.

    Scott, I have a similar position to that which you described. Perhaps we adopt the culture of the Ryu rather than that of Japan first. Of course I am now married into a Japanese family, so I have to think about the impact of my actions on the reputation of my family. In that regard perhaps I am more inclined to accept the wider contemporary Japanese culture of everyday life.

    Though as long as I practice Jigen Ryu and occasionally walk to the convenience store wearing jinbei I will always be the local 変な外人. I have no problem with that.
    Alex Bradshaw

    bradshaw.jp

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    West Midlands, UK
    Posts
    2,054
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    ...and lets be honest - they don't get much stranger than you....
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Darlington, UK
    Posts
    1,019
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    he is from Leeds ya know... He did get a bit carried away though trying out the lifestyle on a JET programme.... its not supposed to include getting married and having a kid!

    Alex, could send me some more stuff on Heki ryu? My archery mates are fascinated!
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

  7. #52
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kagoshima
    Posts
    124
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Tim, I think its pronounced Satsuma Hioki Ryu, although the kanji are the same as Heki Ryu ( 薩摩日置流 )

    I found a smallish picture of an embu in Izumi City, not that far from here.

    http://www.city.izumi.kagoshima.jp/i...unkazai_15.asp

    I'll ask around and see if anyone has a video or something.

    I came across a list of Kobudo ryu in Kagoshima while searching...

    Not sure how accurate it is, but its pretty damned long...

    鹿児島藩 (KAGOSHIMA HAN)
    (薩摩藩)(SATSUMA)

    示現流剣術
    小示現流剣術
    太刀流剣術
    飛太刀流剣術
    常陸流剣術
    真心影之流剣術
    天真流剣術
    外山流剣術
    薬丸流剣術(薬丸自顕流)
    精一流剣術
    太子流剣術
    宅元流剣術
    根本陰流剣術
    直心影流剣術
    朝山流剣術・棒術(浅山一伝流)
    溝口派一刀流剣術
    水野流居合
    山内流居合・組討・手裏剣術
    影之流居合・剣術
    大島流槍術
    本心鏡智流槍術
    天流槍術
    新当流長刀術(穴沢流)
    神人流薙刀術
    真影流棒術
    関口流柔術
    無双流捕手
    荒木流拳法
    稲留流砲術
    荻之流火術(荻野流)
    郷田流砲術
    坂元流砲術
    馬場道興流砲術
    薩摩日置流弓術(日置流印西派)
    吉田流弓術
    鎌倉流馬術・犬追物
    神当流馬術
    大坪流馬術
    高麗流馬術(八条流)
    神統流水術

    甑島 (KOSHIKIJIMA)

    鞍馬揚心流兵法 鹿児島藩領

    種子島 (TANEGASHIMA)

    示現流剣術
    天真流剣術
    精一流剣術
    水野流居合
    山内流居合
    本心鏡智流槍術
    膂風流薙刀術
    無双流拳法・棒術
    竹内流組討腰廻

    I guess many of these don't practice anymore, or are simply very hard to find.

    Of course they are not all from Kagoshima, but I believe they must have been practiced here at some time or another.

    Sorry for the thread drift....
    Alex Bradshaw

    bradshaw.jp

  8. #53
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    260
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidokan
    he is from Leeds ya know... He did get a bit carried away though trying out the lifestyle on a JET programme.... its not supposed to include getting married and having a kid!
    snip
    Actually I think that is a part of the JET contract now. They're trying to clamp down on people who leave the program early.
    My only regret at not marrying a Satsuma Ogojo is that I can't get imojochu anywhere else.

    b

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Western Australia
    Posts
    307
    Likes (received)
    0

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejongtheo
    Seitei kata has become a sort of sword dance in the last years. People organize all kind of contests and championships in "the art". This attitude has not influenced the ryu in any sense, I think.

    Is has had another effect however.

    In the last five years schools of iaido have been looking outside of their schools at the other old ryu where the iai or batto was only a part of the total system. A lot of schools have tried to incorporate the old ryu into their teachings. I have seen schools here in Holland that incorporate old ryu like shinkage and katori.

    They have failed miserably in that attempt. Their view of what sword handling is and was is very clouded by their presumptions of their own art. They think that the seitei is the basis for all sword handling. They fail to see the point in the essence of the ryu. Every ryu had a different approach to handling of the weapon. Therefore it is wrong to presume one can maintain seitei attitude an postures in the exercise of an old ryu.

    However this is what happens a lot, they copy a style and make a new form of seitekata out of it. The result is a copy of the movements with their own interpretation which is totally wrong.

    They do not seem to get the point. In koryu batto had a goal, to draw the sword before attack, or long before the attack. Doing iai nice and slow standing like there is a stick up your *** has nothing to do with the essence. You draw to fight. After the sword is draw their is no iai or batto, only kenjutsu. Iai is a part of the ryuha and cannot be practiced alone, to understand the thing one must practice the whole ryu.

    So it has not influenced the old ryu but the way some people see the ryu. They have the wrong presumptions and ideas about it.

    Its a shame.

    Hi Mr De Jong

    It is a bit of a shame that your experience of Seitei has been seen as dance. As Mr Taylor aluded to a few pages back, the 12 kata are extremely difficult to perfect, If I had 30 years to work on Ippon Mae I still wouldn't have achieved perfection. JSA is a discipline, I would rather strive for perfection in 12 kata than be mediocre in 40.

    Seitei, teaches us control and precision on an even playing field, to say the 12 kata are basics or a dance is really missing the point, in each kata there are many levels, my Sensei will show me a new level or point every year or so, this is the great thing about JSA, no one is ever an expert, every one is continuing to learn, even Sensei.

    Please don't take this as an attack, your points are worthy of a discussion and I am only responding to your post as I believe that it probably reflects a common misconception about ZNKR Iai.

    Yours in Budo

    Jason

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Breda
    Posts
    6
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JAnstey
    Hi Mr De Jong

    It is a bit of a shame that your experience of Seitei has been seen as dance. As Mr Taylor alluded to a few pages back, the 12 kata are extremely difficult to perfect, If I had 30 years to work on Ippon Mae I still wouldn't have achieved perfection. JSA is a discipline, I would rather strive for perfection in 12 kata than be mediocre in 40.

    Seitei, teaches us control and precision on an even playing field, to say the 12 kata are basics or a dance is really missing the point, in each kata there are many levels, my Sensei will show me a new level or point every year or so, this is the great thing about JSA, no one is ever an expert, every one is continuing to learn, even Sensei.

    Please don't take this as an attack, your points are worthy of a discussion and I am only responding to your post as I believe that it probably reflects a common misconception about ZNKR Iai.

    Yours in Budo

    Jason




    Dear Jason,


    I see your point, I really do. I did seitei until I became a 2nd dan. Then I became a member of a koryu school.

    The point in seitei is very zen. The perfection of the sword handling an the polishing of the soul. I all understand that of cause. I don’t disagree with that. That was not what my critics were about. It was about the misinterpretation of the " classical kata" practiced in some Iaido schools. And how they deform them.

    In my opinion Iaido and the seiteikata have no real value in the learning of the way of the sword. The sword is still a weapon, no matter how far we are from combat reality, it is not a thing to dance with. One should realize that.

    The whole "Zen attitude" that is alive today in iaido circles is not for real. There were no old samurai who trained with the sword to attain a higher level of self consciousness. Systems of self consciousness were added to ryuha to be able to cope with the reality of butchering another human being. For putting the turmoil in the mind to rest. Witch is an important thing to practice. If you do not have this ability sword fighting, and foremost killing the opponent, could turn into an addiction. Which is sick. Or one could get frightened by the effect of ones action. Which is also a bad thing.

    You could easily become a better "zen-cultivated" person by learning the perfection of pouring tea, or arranging flowers.


    To come back to my point, there is nothing wrong with this as long as you realize it is not sword fighting. What is wrong with it is that people in iaidoland shop trough the different koryu for more kata which they adapt to their system. these kata then become empty shells. It tricks some people into thinking they practice an old style, which they don’t.

    Batto and Iaido are something totally different. The batto cannot be practiced without the kenjutsu.

    Greetings,

    Theo

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Tokyo
    Posts
    768
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejongtheo
    The whole "Zen attitude" that is alive today in iaido circles is not for real. There were no old samurai who trained with the sword to attain a higher level of self consciousness.
    That statement is entirely wrong.
    As one example, my beloved Mugairyu was explicitly founded on principles of both effective sword technique and zen practice, by a man known equally as much for his ability in sword as his dedication to zen.

    Regards,
    r e n

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Surrey, England
    Posts
    802
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default and

    Tesshu Yamaoka, Musashi Miyamoto,Yagyu Munenori etc etc.

    Theo, you write with a lot of certainty for someone who doesn't appear to have researched that much into the history and culture of the Japanese sword. A word of warning, there are many here on this forum who have dedicated a large part of their lives to this study - I should check your facts before making such bold statements if I were you.
    Andy Watson

    Minoru hodo
    Kobe o tareru
    Inaho ka na

    http://www.simenergy.co.uk

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    West Midlands, UK
    Posts
    2,054
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejongtheo
    In my opinion Iaido and the seiteikata have no real value in the learning of the way of the sword. The sword is still a weapon, no matter how far we are from combat reality, it is not a thing to dance with. One should realize that.
    Perfection of the form is perfection of the self. Why not use a weapon to attain this? When you cut kirioroshi, are you swinging a sword or cutting an opponent? I am pretty sure I am not 250lbs of armed cheerleader. Is seiteigata learning the way of the sword? Probably not, but maybe it is learning the way of the swordsman. How can anyone be a martial artist without forging the mind and the spirit - as well as the body?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejongtheo
    The whole "Zen attitude" that is alive today in iaido circles is not for real. There were no old samurai who trained with the sword to attain a higher level of self consciousness.
    In the past I have read work of Tesshu's and Yamamoto's - some has been an excellent insight, some less so. The only text I read now is Go Rin no Sho - which I read (and try to absorb) most days. To say Musashi was just a killer with no aspirations of self-improvement (both mentally AND physically) is dumb to the point of idiocy. Sorry to be harsh, but your comments are only a point of view and should be posted as such. May I recommend you take Andy's advice above?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejongtheo
    Systems of self consciousness were added to ryuha to be able to cope with the reality of butchering another human being.
    Nonsense. Those who killed could do it with little consideration for the consequences for either themselves of the guy spread over the floor in front of them.

    In the UK there is little hunting done these days. If you asked the typical person on the street to shoot a deer they'd freak out. Go back a few hundred years before Wal-Mart and anyone would be more than willing to feed their family in this way. 16thC Japan would have been no different. What is morally unacceptable today wasn't back then. It was a way of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejongtheo
    What is wrong with it is that people in iaidoland shop trough the different koryu for more kata which they adapt to their system. these kata then become empty shells. It tricks some people into thinking they practice an old style, which they don’t.
    A wide generalisation. From a personal standpoint, the more I practice, the more my koryu iai (MJER) and my seitei iai are drifting apart - my MJER practice is far from an empty shell.

    In short, koryu bujutsu and seitei iai are two very different beasts, but can easily co-exist providing you can keep them in different cages. They may not always be complimentary to each other, but it is possible to learn the pros and cons of both beasts and develop and grow using that knowledge.
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Guelph Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    312
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Watson
    ... A word of warning, there are many here on this forum who have dedicated a large part of their lives to this study - I should check your facts before making such bold statements if I were you.

    He he

    As I read through an awful lot of the posts by people I don't recognize on the net one of the thoughts that most often pop up in my head is

    "talk to me in 20 years".

    Kim "coming up on 30 years and ever less to say" Taylor

  15. #60
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Blue Ridge, Texas
    Posts
    2,000
    Likes (received)
    125

    Default

    Kim "coming up on 30 years and ever less to say" Taylor
    But Kim, you can say so much in so few words now!
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •