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Thread: Koryu Bujutsu & Seitei Iaido

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dejongtheo
    Dear Jason,

    I see your point, I really do. I did seitei until I became a 2nd dan. Then I became a member of a koryu school.

    The point in seitei is very zen. The perfection of the sword handling an the polishing of the soul. I all understand that of cause. I don’t disagree with that. That was not what my critics were about. It was about the misinterpretation of the " classical kata" practiced in some Iaido schools. And how they deform them.

    In my opinion Iaido and the seiteikata have no real value in the learning of the way of the sword. The sword is still a weapon, no matter how far we are from combat reality, it is not a thing to dance with. One should realize that.

    The whole "Zen attitude" that is alive today in iaido circles is not for real. There were no old samurai who trained with the sword to attain a higher level of self consciousness. Systems of self consciousness were added to ryuha to be able to cope with the reality of butchering another human being. For putting the turmoil in the mind to rest. Witch is an important thing to practice. If you do not have this ability sword fighting, and foremost killing the opponent, could turn into an addiction. Which is sick. Or one could get frightened by the effect of ones action. Which is also a bad thing.

    You could easily become a better "zen-cultivated" person by learning the perfection of pouring tea, or arranging flowers.


    To come back to my point, there is nothing wrong with this as long as you realize it is not sword fighting. What is wrong with it is that people in iaidoland shop trough the different koryu for more kata which they adapt to their system. these kata then become empty shells. It tricks some people into thinking they practice an old style, which they don’t.

    Batto and Iaido are something totally different. The batto cannot be practiced without the kenjutsu.

    Greetings,

    Theo
    Hi Theo,

    Maybe it's because I train in one of more remote areas in the Netherlands (Friesland ) but incorporating koryu kenjutsu and transforming them in iai "seitei kata" sounds weird to me. My sensei don't do this and I have never met a sensei who taught this kind of stuff. We don't shop kata to create new ones. We have seitei + koryu iai. We stick with that.

    Just because we don't have kenjutsu doesn't mean that our system isn't complete, we just have a different approach to JSA. (MSR has partner kata, I'm just to inexperienced to be able to practice them) You just basically said that kendo isn't a proper addition to iai/batto (whatever you want to call it). However a lot of sensei say that iai and kendo are wings of the same bird. Not a very nice thing to do and you basically disagree with a few highly respected swordsmen.

    As mentioned before, Zen and swordsmanship has been connected for ages. Great sword masters have written some very nice books about it. There are several ways to become more cultivated. Archery, Tea ceremony, Swordsmanship, different ways, same goal. Yes it helped the samurai to keep a sane mind, but Zen became a more important part of swordsmanship in the 17th century, when Japan became more peaceful.

    Seitei can be made as real as you want it, it depends on the way you approach the kata. If you think it's a sword dance, it will become a sword dance. If you imagine you’re in a fight, it becomes a fight. Use your imagination

    Just because we cut air most of the time doesn't mean we aren't killing someone in our mind. You can't see the adversary, but we can. As a nidan you should know this. Your goal is to become a killer with a sword, fine. Me as an iaidoka want to develop myself in mind, body and spirit by improving my iai (and I just like to use a sword ). It doesn't make me less dangerous with a sword when it comes to a dual, my view and goals are just different.

    You talk about your kenjutsu, but what koryu do you practice?
    Last edited by Mr. T.; 25th July 2006 at 22:51. Reason: typo
    Tijs Dingerdis

  2. #62
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    Before I went to Japan my house was packed with Japanese ideas and things.
    I really thought that, Wow a life of Budo seishin will really do something for me. It' the real way to go for self improvement.

    Then I went there to find myself living on the floor and bowing on the telephone and being totally immersed in the culture in some ways. But in others was determined to make myself a a small Western nest to remain sane. One tends to try and draw on the best of both worlds. But what I did quickley find out was that if you want some "seishin" you have to put it in there yourself. As A result I find some japanese that have it, a lot of Westerners that have never even been to Japan that have it. A lot of people that don't even do Budo have it too!

    I have found very few Japanese that take Budo as far as zen. We all do Budo for our own reasons and Japanese are no different. Some are immersed in a cultural trip others are in it for the exercise, for a lot it's work. For most its a sense of belonging to an "association" with common ideals. There are all sorts out there. Some nice people, some real ego trippers etc. Some of the biggest shocks one will get looking for that idealistic sempai and sensei is that even the guys at the top can be some real wankers(can I say that?.

    After nearly 25 years of it I really needed a change of climate. But still as ever I go and do my budo. The climte is so good I can even do it outside all year.

    They will finish building my house in a few months. Just the marble to go down and windows to go in. But already I look at the neighbours lawns and think, "Mmm I think I will have a Japanese garden". If you live there you are surrounded by it. If you don't you still want a piece of it!
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  3. #63
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    It seems to me that a lot of people got angry with me after my last posting. Sorry for that, I noticed there are a lot of experts on this forum to.

    Nevertheless I stand by my point. And I would like to explain it a little further. Forums like these are dominated by people of the budo-side. A lot of "expert" postings are in a sense opinions. For some reason persons who are in a ryu do not easily post their opinion on these forums.

    What is it with all the people who understand the books of kansuke and Musashi on this forum? Is it not clear to al the expert that any ryuha writhing can only be understood it one has enjoyed oral transmission? These books are nice documents but are clearly not for learning sword fighting. I could buy a lot of different mokurokku on the internet and read them. That does not mean I master those schools. Do these people imply that if you do a life long Seitei and read the gorin a lot you are a swordfighter?


    Furthermore sources which are nowadays open to us do not reveal a lot, since the still existing ryu may seem like open structures but are in essence still closed up.

    I am also short sited in a sence since I look trough the viewpoint of my school. But I can tell you that the most schools hold a much more practical view to the whole situation.

    Sorry I am not an expert. I did not read all the samurai books and all the published mokurokku and the musashi book. I just post what I think and am taught.

    Greetings all you samurai,

  4. #64
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    What do you wanna talk about? Slating seiteigata or reading Go Rin no Sho?

    If it is the latter, be careful. There are a few people on here who actually practice Musashi's art (Hyaku, Kim Taylor, myself + others) and view the book from a practical, combative viewpoint. It is not about applying one guy's thoughts to another unrelated art - it is applying Musashi's writings to Musashi's techniques.

    As for closed ryuha, PM Hyaku above - he has spent a couple of decades INSIDE that ryu.
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

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    Theo

    I am not having a go at you here, I am smiling pleasantly while writing this so please don't interpret anything here as aggressive (there have been far less polite posters than you here).

    Many if not all of the people who regularly post on this forum practise a koryu if they practise seitei. I could not name anyone who only practises seitei here, all of the well known posters are all part of either MSR, MJER, HNIR, TSKSR and many others.

    What you say is partly true, one cannot attain a deep essence of swordsmanship from doing seitei and reading the Gorinsho. However I don't believe that anyone has made that claim (Stephen Kaufman being the exception).

    Take me for example. I have read the Gorinsho (three separate translations in fact) and while it was interesting I could glean nothing really from it which would be useful in my Seitei/Muso Shinden Ryu iai training. Maybe I picked up a tiny piece of something here or there but I couldn't really remember much which was useful. There is something interesting in carpentry; I remember that much.

    So in that aspect - yes you are right.

    People like Hyaku, ScottUK and others however train in HNIR, have interaction with the soke, integrate with others in the ryu. For them the Gorinsho may have bags of useful information which only gains meaning after having had the nuances explained and demonstrated to them.

    In my case that is not my ryuha and I prefer the Iaido Hongi Muso Shinden Ryu by Yamatsuta Shigeyoshi and Iaido sono Riai by Danzaki sensei. I attend regular seminars by the various visiting Japanese sensei, I have visited Japan several times to train, I have lived there for two years, I note and research various peoples way of doing MSR, I watch videos and DVDs of people teaching MSR, I co-translated the seitei manual etc etc.

    BUT I would not consider myself atypical of others in this forum - I am nothing special or different from most of the regular posters here.

    So I would hardly say that I am restricted to a few seitei sessions and having read GRNS would I?

    Your point may be valid for many many people who train in the martial arts but to generalise that on this forum might be pushing it a bit. E-budo is quite strict in its moderation and thus it generally attracts those who take their training seriously

    There are few of us here who are armchair martial artists. Many of us have devoted large parts or our lives to the martial arts in time, money, relationships and lifestyle. Don't speak too lightly of our seriousness. I don't think anyone here dreams about taking the sword to the street and becoming a samurai in a post-apocalyptic world because that is not the purpose of our practise. We are researchers, trainees, exponents and sometimes teachers of the martial arts - we realise we are not samurai.
    Andy Watson

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    Inaho ka na

    http://www.simenergy.co.uk

  6. #66
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    Dear friend, you are the one who is implying that I am insulting people!

    If it is the latter, be careful. There are a few people on here who actually practice Musashi's art (Hyaku, Kim Taylor, myself + others) and view the book from a practical, combative viewpoint. It is not about applying one guy's thoughts to another unrelated art - it is applying Musashi's writings to Musashi's techniques.

    I am not discussing this man's school or technique. I am merely saying that one is very arrogant to say on a forum that one has learned a great deal about sword art by reading the book.

    I do not want to discuss the origins and aspects of the Nitenryu. Clearly Musashi was a reputable swordfighter. But so was Tsukahara Bukoden and many others. Many of the attention seem to focus around the more known schools. Schools of which there are in many cases more than one side stream and many honbu which claim to do the right stuff. This is a thing that happens when styles get famous.

    In essence a ryu is not suitable for training in big groups or educating big numbers of people in the sword. Ryu training has always been a one on one thing. So in my opinion things will eventually get lost if koryu kata are adapted to the mass training of kata.

    And honestly, do people here really think that the art of the greatest swordfighter known to history looked like seiteikata? Come on you are joking right?

    I also want to react on the comment of mister Tijs Dingerdis. There are a number of schools in Holland who practice “koryu” aside their seiteikata. Styles such as Tenshinshodenkatorishintoryu, Yagyseigoryu, Hokiryu, etc, are being practiced in our country. Al these schools train these kata with the seitei as a basis, in doing this they are disturbing the basis of the old schools where the iai part of the training was only a part. One trained iai when there was no training partner around. A lot of schools in the beginning did not even include iai. A lot of kata were added by later Sihanke.


    With very kind regards,

    Theo

  7. #67
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    What was your training history again? You are throwing around a lot of opinions and I'd like a little context in which to evaluate them.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    Theo

    It seems to me that a lot of people got angry with me after my last posting. Sorry for that, I noticed there are a lot of experts on this forum to.
    Dear friend, you are the one who is implying that I am insulting people!
    Actually Theo I was just acknowledging that you didn't mean to offend anyone. I see that you then flew off at me despite the fact that I added:

    I am not having a go at you here, I am smiling pleasantly while writing this so please don't interpret anything here as aggressive (there have been far less polite posters than you here).

    As Charles just posted, you are throwing around a lot of opinions about things which very few people can put their hand on their heart and say they are sure about.

    And honestly, do people here really think that the art of the greatest swordfighter known to history looked like seiteikata? Come on you are joking right?

    Al these schools train these kata with the seitei as a basis, in doing this they are disturbing the basis of the old schools where the iai part of the training was only a part. One trained iai when there was no training partner around. A lot of schools in the beginning did not even include iai. A lot of kata were added by later Sihanke.
    ...this is quite clearly showing that your understanding of the history of Japanese sword martial arts is based on very little actual research.

    Some of your remarks are extremely inflammatory. Your latest piece of mudchucking against the schools in Holland is extremely misplaced. I have many Dutch friends through the martial arts and in the EKF they are one of the strongest of nations in terms of their numbers, their grades and the enthusiasm with which they approach their training. They are frequently visited by very high ranking iai teachers from Japan with which they have a solid relationship. These teachers do not only teach seitei but many other koryu.

    Unless you yourself have such a wealth of experience on which to comment I suggest you shut up!
    Andy Watson

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    Inaho ka na

    http://www.simenergy.co.uk

  9. #69
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    It sounds more like an uninformed opinion of a nidan who tired of seiteigata.
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dejongtheo
    In essence a ryu is not suitable for training in big groups or educating big numbers of people in the sword. Ryu training has always been a one on one thing. So in my opinion things will eventually get lost if koryu kata are adapted to the mass training of kata.
    At his peak in the early 1700's, Tsuji Gettan Sukemochi, founder of Mugairyu, was kenjutsu instructor to several lords across Japan simultaneously. In fact, his two sons and best disciples went to opposite ends of Japan to be dedicated kenjutsu instructors for two different powerful lords. In total he had thousands of students at any one time.
    The same can be said for many arts. Older "battlefield" arts were used to train soldiers by the hundreds and thousands.

    Regards,

    r e n

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    I was enjoying this thread and then a troll came and hijacked it. What a bummer.

    It's like being at a party where you're with a group of people you like and having a nice time chatting, maybe even finding out new stuff, when all of a sudden, some buffoon comes along and, perhaps jealous of feeling left out of what he thinks looks like an important coterie, comes stomping all over everyone else's good time by inserting provocative irrelevancies at high volume.

    However I don't confuse this nice chat we were having with actual training, as many trolls do.

    b

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    Default I Agree...

    Hello everyone,

    I agree with Ben Sheppard's viewpoint that this was proving to be an enjoyable and stimulating discussion until the "waters got muddied" with a potential flame-out.

    I sincerely appreciate all those who have been responding to the various discussion points I have raised in this thread and value your opinions highly. Therefore, let's seek a different direction for this ongoing discusssion.

    The United States Tamiya Ryu Iaijutsu Organization firmly maintains the policy that three things supercede any kind of martial art training: First, family concerns of any kind (for example, a death in the family, the birth of a child, relationship problems, etc.); second, education-related matters (for example, the need to ask for time off from training due to the need to focus on studying for final exams, writing term papers and the like); and third, issues relating to one's employment (for example, being called out of town on business by one's boss, being asked to work overtime, etc.).

    We feel that when any of our Deshi have one (or more) of these three areas "out of balance", then it becomes very difficult for them to focus their minds and energies during O-Keiko, despite all efforts to the contrary. As we say to all our Deshi when they enter the Dojo for training: "Leave any and all 'baggage' outside before you step into the Dojo environment...it WILL be waiting for you there when training is done."

    I would be curious to hear how you, the readers of E-Budo, feel about this particular aspect of martial arts training and whether your Dojo has a similar viewpoint or policy.

    Many thanks in advance for your responses!

    Ogenki de,
    Michael Gennan Alexanian
    General Manager & Head Instructor
    United States Tamiya Ryu Iaijutsu
    Michigan Honbu Dojo


    "Do not regret being ignored; regret being ignorant."
    Ryuko

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    Default Moshiwake

    Michael

    As usual your calm syntax generates enthusiastic discussion.

    In my opinion you have hit the nail right on the head. I am always disparaging people who don't turn up for training, I think I inherited this from my karate instructor who would encourage people to leave if they didn't turn up regularly. The only exception being the three issues you have raised. I certainly don't accept most illnesses of members to be a reason to not come to the dojo (unless they are contagious, or can't walk - otherwise what's wrong with coming down and watching?).

    For the three points you mention though, I feel that not only are they acceptable reasons but the instructor should encourage the individual to put training aside until they have resolved their issues. The result may be that the student can come back with strength renewed.

    Sorry your thread got hijacked but well done for an excellent recovery.
    Andy Watson

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    Inaho ka na

    http://www.simenergy.co.uk

  14. #74
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    In addition to the usual reasons to train, I find that my practice is an excellent escape from the pressures of work, family etc. From the second I enter the dojo to the moment I pack up I don't spend a moment thinking about anything other than keiko.

    Its while you're folding your hakama you usually go 'oh $@&% I've got X to do when I get back...' and then I don't want to go home!

    Iai has a lot more plus points than I thought.
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

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    Neighbors,

    Often times I have noticed a student who is out of sorts or being unnecessarily rude to others and I remind them that the dojo is a place to escape from the rest of the world and not a place to drag the world through the door with you. Sometimes another iaidoka has to tell me the same thing. Its good to have friends in the dojo who help keep you on an even keel.

    My work demands that I travel a great deal but after I get home and settle back into family life the next thing I do is head to the dojo - it always seems like I'm truly settled after I step onto the floor and start to do kata.

    The three reasons (family, illness, work) for not attending are good ones and should be part of all dojo policies.

    Respectfully,
    Dan Keding
    Storyteller - Author - Musician
    Iaidoka MJER

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