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Thread: Koryu Bujutsu & Seitei Iaido

  1. #76
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    Iaido can be an excellent refuge.
    The meditative qualities of Iai and I suppose any martial discipline are often forgotten.
    At a particularly horrible time in my life I had spent almost two full weeks grieving. When I was finally able to go to the dojo, it gave me almost two hours break from my grief. Two hours to be able to concentrate solely on practicing techniques (I can't remember if I was practicing Koryu or Seitei at the time).
    I don't suppose it was the best Iai I've ever produced, and I suspect it was well below my normal standard at the time. It was however, a welcome break and helped me in more ways than I probably even realise.
    After the practice I still had to face up to life, but I was better able to because I'd had two hours away from life.
    Tony Devine
    Rochester
    KENT
    UK

  2. #77
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    I get very irritable if I miss Class for a week. I only miss it due to work the rare situations that I'm the only person covering, i.e, I'm oncall this week - this means I might miss one of the two classes I have.

    I have an arrangement with work that overtime is scheduled around my classes as much as possible - e.g. After class on a Saturday, rather than before. It usually works out.
    Mat Rous

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dejongtheo
    ...In essence a ryu is not suitable for training in big groups or educating big numbers of people in the sword. Ryu training has always been a one on one thing.
    Could you give more information on this? It certainly doesn't match my understanding, limited though it is, of what ryu were and how they became established.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejongtheo
    ...There are a number of schools in Holland who practice “koryu” aside their seiteikata. Styles such as Tenshinshodenkatorishintoryu, Yagyseigoryu, Hokiryu, etc, are being practiced in our country. Al these schools train these kata with the seitei as a basis, in doing this they are disturbing the basis of the old schools where the iai part of the training was only a part.
    Again, could you be more specific? For example, the Tenshin-sho Den Katori Shinto Ryu Sugino-ha is represented in the Netherlands, but I've never heard any complaints that they were basing their TSKSR curriculum on the Seiteigata.

    Also, you mentioned Yagyu Seigo Ryu. Yagyu Seigo Ryu is an iai art, but that doesn't mean that it is "based on" the Seiteigata. Have you actually been to one of their dojo and seen such mixing?

    Lastly, please remember to sign your posts with your real name as you agreed to do when you joined this board.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  4. #79
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    Dear Mister Owen, I do sign with my real name.

    As for the discussion, I think it has ended here. I just made a statement, I described the things I see happening here. That is all. To be honest I have seen the same thing happening to my school the last five years. People from other budo started practicing it outside of the honbu, contracting unqualified teachers. The effect was and still is clear to me. There are a lot of people training my koryu in a way that has nothing to do with the practice of honbu. Therefore these teachings are empty, since they adapted stances and techniques to their own system. In my eyes this is wrong.

    I see the same thing happening to other styles, the iaido incorporating of other styles is just an example.

    Why do these people go on talking about zen? Do they really think seiteikata is sword fighting? Do they think they stand a chance with seiteikata? I wonder....

    Wasn't seiteikata developed from the koryu for the kendo people to give them a feeling of the sword? One can see the same pattern of movement as in kendo. Feet from the floor and your back upright. Why is there this misconception that seitei is a basis with wich one can learn every iaischool?

    Isn’t every koryu and therefore its iai different in essence? Don't they all have different and unique insights in the sword (with some comparisons between related school)?

    I just posted a opinion. I am sorry if people got upset.

    Theo.


    Ps: to come back on the question of teaching big groups someone asked about. In my opinion the transmission of the essence can only be done by direct teaching, one on one teaching, in which the higher graduate person makes the pupil understand the essence of the technique

  5. #80
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    Okay, opinions stated, let's move on (or away).
    Andy Watson

    Minoru hodo
    Kobe o tareru
    Inaho ka na

    http://www.simenergy.co.uk

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dejongtheo
    ...Why is there this misconception that seitei is a basis with wich one can learn every iai school?
    I've never run into a Kendoka who believed that. Maybe I've been lucky.

    Even in the MSR class I attended it was made clear that whether it was the Seiteigata or the MSR waza, what was being taught was what it was and nothing more; that while certain similarities exist in the fundamentals of swordsmanship, the differences in the details are what give the various schools -- both koryu and gendai -- their distinctiveness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejongtheo
    ...Why do these people go on talking about zen? Do they really think seiteikata is sword fighting? Do they think they stand a chance with seiteikata? I wonder....
    I wonder about your question. "Do they think they stand a chance" in what? A sword fight? Who fights with swords today? This is the 21st century.

    Different people have different reasons for picking up the sword, but if learning swordsmanship in the expectation of using it in mortal combat is their reason then their reason is far removed from mine.
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 4th August 2006 at 05:21.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  7. #82
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    Default Here here

    Do they think they stand a chance with seiteikata?
    and do you think that you know enough to recognise if people would survive a swordfight or not with their skills?

    Have you had any real combat experience with swords?
    Andy Watson

    Minoru hodo
    Kobe o tareru
    Inaho ka na

    http://www.simenergy.co.uk

  8. #83
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    If he had combat experience with live swords, it would harldy qualify for being the voice of reason anyways
    Roar Ulvestad

  9. #84
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    Recently I read a famous kendo sensei, I think it was Mochida Seiji sensei, once said, "if you are sick, it's probably not worth going to training."

    When I was young, I used to make excuses not to go to training. Now I am older and my time is not my own, I have to make excuses to go!

    So everyday that I get to put on bogu is a good day!

    b

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by ichibyoshi
    Recently I read a famous kendo sensei, I think it was Mochida Seiji sensei, once said, "if you are sick, it's probably not worth going to training."

    When I was young, I used to make excuses not to go to training. Now I am older and my time is not my own, I have to make excuses to go!

    So everyday that I get to put on bogu is a good day!

    b

    Meh..if you have a fever you shouldn't train..but you can still come and observe the training anyways.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

  11. #86
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    Hello Mr DeJong

    You have me a bit lost here. Do you really think anything we learn with a sword nowadays prepares us for a real until death sword fighting situation.

    In Koryu training we do some individual tuition. but part of a session almost always includes beneficial group training. Also one can do some essential training on ones own with good creative visualization.

    I would not knock setei. For a lot of us who teach and train in Koryu it was a good foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejongtheo
    Why do these people go on talking about zen? Do they really think seiteikata is sword fighting? Do they think they stand a chance with seiteikata? I wonder....

    Wasn't seiteikata developed from the koryu for the kendo people to give them a feeling of the sword? One can see the same pattern of movement as in kendo. Feet from the floor and your back upright. Why is there this misconception that seitei is a basis with wich one can learn every iaischool?

    Isn’t every koryu and therefore its iai different in essence? Don't they all have different and unique insights in the sword (with some comparisons between related school)?

    I just posted a opinion. I am sorry if people got upset.

    Theo.


    Ps: to come back on the question of teaching big groups someone asked about. In my opinion the transmission of the essence can only be done by direct teaching, one on one teaching, in which the higher graduate person makes the pupil understand the essence of the technique
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred27
    Meh..if you have a fever you shouldn't train..but you can still come and observe the training anyways.
    Seriously for a moment, if you really do have a fever, what will going to the dojo achieve? Some mitori-keiko for you, and the likelihood that you will pass on your germs to others in the dojo making them sick. Wanting to be seen at the dojo when sick smacks of ego to me.

    Stay home and do "image-training" instead. Go back to the dojo when you're well.

    b

  13. #88
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    Ben,

    Thanks for saying that about spreading your cold. I can't recall how many times a student or teacher in our dojo has come in sneezing, coughing, feverish and still on the floor or watching class making sure that half of the people attending that night will also share his/her misery in a few days.
    Stay home if you're contagious read a book on the martial arts, go over your kata in your head or just have some Jack Daniels and go to bed.

    My sainted Croatian grandmother had a great cure for a cold - p of tea with a tablespoon of honey and two shots of whiskey - you sweated like a pig, was as weak as a baby but your cold was gone. All in all a great cure.


    Think I'll go catch a cold.
    Dan Keding
    Storyteller - Author - Musician
    Iaidoka MJER

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by ichibyoshi
    Seriously for a moment, if you really do have a fever, what will going to the dojo achieve? Some mitori-keiko for you, and the likelihood that you will pass on your germs to others in the dojo making them sick. Wanting to be seen at the dojo when sick smacks of ego to me.

    Stay home and do "image-training" instead. Go back to the dojo when you're well.

    b
    I never thought about it the way you do: Everyone who has ever had a fever or illness but still gone to practice to observe has a problem with his/her ego then? Thats a very negative attitude. I'm sure plenty people with no such problems have been ill but gone to practice anyways to watch and learn. You are of course entitled to your opinion but I don't necessarily agree with it.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

  15. #90
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    Fred, how often do you have classes?

    If I'm out with a cold one night, there are still as many as 4 other classes that week I can attend. Watching one class isn't gonna make any difference in the long run. Some of us train in small enclosed spaces where airborn germs spread easily. Students at our dojo who are contagious are encouraged not to come to class.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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