Rev Geoff Flather Sensei, 7th Dan

[Gary Simms]

Hi,

Since my last post I have been to a local kung-fu club and another Aikido club. The kung fu seemed more like a keep fit class although again I have nothing to judge it against. The other Aikido class was full-on. There was no ki tests, talk of ki or even talk - it was just hard practise. I can see I will need to be waaay fitter to keep that up but it looks worth it.

I had a chance to talk to some of the people there after class and one of them had trained with sensei Kolesnikov originally (thanks Andy - I wouldn't have remembered the name if you hadn't posted it) and he said Geoff Flather got his first dan grade from sensei Kolesnikov around 1985, before Geoff left to start his own club, but he didn't know where Geoff's later grades came from.

Can't comment on the rev title. Perhaps Andy Crowe can?

Gary

[Geoff Flather]

Having been advised by a Mr. Cartwright of this site`s presumpteous chat line on my character. I obviously did visit your site. A very strange way of recruitment ?

May I thank Mr Andy Crowe for his support, and unknown unsolicited constructive criticism.

I am surprised I have been the topic of much malicious presumption on the part of so many of your writers on the subject of my character, my unasked for ranking within Aikido, and my experience. Since they have never met me. Which was initiated by Mr Gary Simms. Who seems to have been given a hospitable, friendly, knowledgable, considerate welcome into our dojo.

My 7th Dan was not awarded by the WMAC, this is a presumption on Mr Simm`s part. There are no secrets between my students and I, or indeed anyone, all you had to do was ask ? The first criteria in the martial arts is trust between teacher and student; or as in your own case - visitor.

Yes we do give explanations for how we practice, hence we do talk, and laughter is encouraged. Frequently in traditional practice of Aikido they do not talk or give explanations. They have their reasons for this I have my own. Their intent is that you realise for yourself what is required within a given exercise etc. I personally believe as we are not educated this way in this Country, it is not as effective as a teaching aid to enablement in almost any subject.

Would you like to be operated on by a surgeon who had not practiced the fundimentals of the theory of surgery or anatomy or could not convey to you what they intended to do to you ?

Of course; others do not teach Aikido as we do, and it may appear they teach differently. Once you have the fundimentals you and I can be as quiet as you prefer.

It would have been an unusual evening, if we practiced half of the evening with mind and body co-ordination exercises, unless some students needed to give attention to these exercises for their approching progressive Assessment Award.

" Geoff talked a lot " is a matter of oppinion, in this case your own.

The World Martial Arts Council is an association for the inclusion of all martial arts to be included and represented, and under the correct designation of the Olympic Games Charter not simply as guest sports or activities, after all Judo does not represent Kung Fu, and Taekwondo does not represent Karate or many other martial arts. Possibly I should have said more on the occasion you visited us !??

In Japan and in other countries it is considered ignorant, and bad mannered to enquire after a Black Belts award. This is looked into by those of that given level. However having accepted this award, ( contrary to your " he says ") and realising that there are others within this country, who choose not to accept an award greater than their own teachers such as those who were direct students of the in-estimatable Master Abbe Sensei. May find my award unacceptable. I do not lower my appreciation of their efforts over the years, in their choice to not accept further awards. I was more than content to practice under their teaching at the Abbe Aniversary and 50 years Jubilee of Aikido among 700 others whatever their grades or preferred Aikido attitude.
Although personally I do not mind you asking, all you had to was ask ? Master Tomio Otani my teacher for some years until his death, was in fact a great friend of Master Abbe.

However in the association of Aikido Yuishinkai International, 7th Dan is the award I was given, I did not ask for it, and I deeply thought not to accept it, and I would not have joined had I known before this might happen, especially if it were to be a supposed reward for joining the association, which it was not ! I had also previously been advised this would not be the case.

The President of the Aikido Yuishinkai International is Maruyama Sensei who spent many years with Morihei Ueshiba Osensei, who of course awarded him with Black belt awards in Aikido, Maruyama Sensei also practiced Shinkage Ryu swordmanship. Maruyama Sensei then followed Koichi Tohei Sensei 10th Dan into his association; Master Tohei was considered to be among the strongest of exponents at that time, and to be among the foremost of Osensei`s students. After Ueshiba Morihei Osensei`s death in 1969, Master Tohei Sensei choose to leave the Aikikai, because he was not allowed to develop a system of learning Aikido within the Aikikai. One real upset was actually when all the Dojos who had a photograph of Tohei within their dojo`s were told to take them down. Master Tohei was in fact the ambassador for Osensei throughout much of the world outside Japan and in the building of the Silver Bridge. A man of such ability surely would not give it up for something less. This rift has not been resolved by the Aikikai, yet ! Many open minded Aikidoka are still awaiting the day when the family head of Aikido brings all Aikido and Aikidoka together. As Maruyama Sensei has stated all Aikido is Aikido !

" Fluffy ? " as you may put it = co-operative, I have not met many schools of martial arts that do not co-operate to some degree, it is better than spending several hours in a Hospital Casualty Waiting Room ? so I will continue to do so for our visitors and students progressively assisting them to be stronger, teaching them with consideration, getting to know who they really are and how much they can take, in knowledge and skill of Aikido. I do not put weapons into a fools hands !

Obviously your original question has enabled others to have their ushirotantodori practice, when obviously quite ignorant of my character, what I stand for, or the occassional good works I may be capable of doing, my attempts at honestly portraying Aikido as a means to peace and goodwill, and a release from a frequently aggressive world.

I leave the insults with those who ignorantly gave them, and wish you all well in your practice of Aikido.

My first impressions of this site are not good, maybe not a premier site ? but possibly secundus ?

So pardon me if I am wrong ? but I feel your welcome to your community may be disbelievable ?


Thank you for your consideration,

Geoff Flather

[Mike_Haft]

I had a chance to talk to some of the people there after class and one of them had trained with sensei Kolesnikov originally (thanks Andy - I wouldn't have remembered the name if you hadn't posted it) and he said Geoff Flather got his first dan grade from sensei Kolesnikov around 1985, before Geoff left to start his own club, but he didn't know where Geoff's later grades came from.

Can't comment on the rev title. Perhaps Andy Crowe can?

Gary

Dear Gary,

Kolesnikov was only one of Flather Sensei's teachers, another was Tomio Otani who studied with Abbe Sensei, it was Tomio Otani who encouraged Geoff Flather Sensei to begin teaching on his own. I believe it was Tomio Otani who graded him to 2nd Dan. Until 2004 Geoff has never claimed any rank other than 2nd Dan, however if you ever uked for him you tended to walk away thinking '2nd dan, if thats only 2nd dan I don't want to imagine 3rd or 4th'.
His 7th Dan was awarded him in 2004 by Koretoshi Maruyama who was himself an uchideshi of O Sensei and formerly the Chief instructor of the Ki Society.
Geoff was never particularly bothered about receiving it as I recall at the time, but it appears on various promotional material associated with him. Having known him for about 10 years I'd guess (I haven't personally spoken to him about it) that he feels he should use it because of his involvement with Aikido Yuishinkai.

As to the Rev title I've never asked Geoff where it comes from as I really don't care, he rarely mentions it or indeed religion of any kind (for those who mentioned 'cult').

Any questions as to Geoff sensei's ability are as far as I'm concerned ridiculous, I have personally been uke for Geoff many times and I can assure you that what might look 'fake' to you only looks fake because I (and others) have a strong sense of self preservation and do not wish to be injured. I have also been uke for a number of other highly ranked aikido sensei at occasional seminars and on the few occasions I've visited another aikido dojo and if I didn't think that the aikido Geoff teaches was the aikido I most wanted to learn I wouldn't still be his student.

Sincerely

Mike Haft

(Edited some spelling errors)

[Dave Humm]

As someone who has been involved with researching British Aikido for a number of years, I have had both the opportunity to meet with and discuss the subject with a considerable number of people; several of which were genuinely students of Abbe Kenshiro, Noro Masamichi, Chiba Kazuo and, resident as students either for part or whole of their formative years at the Hut dojo in Hillingdon.

This research has resulted in both positive and negative data; I've met many people who are who they say they are and, those whom merely claim to be what they are not. The problem today in our world of information technology is that we're exposed far more to those who, for their own gratification are willing to let their EGO become the focus of the reason why they don their hakama each week. I can name almost a dozen British aikidoists who lay claim to 7th and 8th dan grades ALL OF WHICH were obtained from within their own organisation or from multi-art organisations which, IMHO have no business issuing such documentation.

When you look at who else we have within the UK, the quality of those individuals, the direct connections they have with their style respective hombu and more importantly; how long it has taken them to attain their mere 6th dan, it becomes a bit clearer why those westerners laying claim to loftier grades and indeed titles such as "shihan" are looked upon with a degree of scepticism. Whether this scepticism is actually warranted or due is a matter of debate however; regardless of whether we like it or not scepticism will always remain.

Geoff Flather wrote:

In Japan and in other countries it is considered ignorant, and bad mannered to enquire after a Black Belts award

Whilst I understand the sentiment, I do not agree; we should never feel unable to respectfully ask about an instructor's lineage, grades and experience. Especially if said instructor is advertising themselves in the public domain... The key is however to do this with due respect.

I have only met Flather Sensei once, this was on the 14th May 2005 during the Abbe celebratory seminar which I helped organise; I have no knowledge of his actual ability or (until his post in this thread) his aikido lineage.

Kind regards to Geoff and all

[Mike_Haft]

Whilst I understand the sentiment, I do not agree; we should never feel unable to respectfully ask about an instructor's lineage, grades and experience. Especially if said instructor is advertising themselves in the public domain... The key is however to do this with due respect.

I agree with this sentiment and would simply add that in the past when I respectfully asked what his rank was Geoff usually replied "2nd Dan", at first I didn't believe him

It may also be worth noting at this point that the award of 2nd Dan by Tomio Otani was made shortly before he died. I'm sure there would have been further awards of rank had he lived longer but sadly for us all he didn't.

From my recollection of talking about the 7th Dan with Geoff when he was offered it he said that he was concerned it would be seen as a reward and that he should not accept it if it was such. Obviously in the end he accepted it but I believe it was mostly to do with the fact that he wanted to be a part of Yuishinkai in the UK and to have an opportunity to learn from Maruyama Sensei.

It was stated earlier in this thread that Maruyama has awarded a number of ranks as a reward for joining his organisation, I don't believe that this is the case for the following reasons:

The Dan system was applied to the martial arts by Jigoro Kano inventor of Judo, he viewed it as an objective way to assess ability through (amongst other things) competition.

Prior to this the only two ranks that mattered in the Japanese arts were (1) the rank where you were allowed to teach what you had learned and (2) the rank where you were allowed to license people to teach (in Daito Ryu for example this was the Menkyo Kaiden)

These ranks reflected the personal relationship between teacher and student. As such the Dan system is a superficial construct imposed on Aikido (and all gendai budo as a result of historical development) as there are no objective means available to fairly assess ability (unlike the use of competition in Judo).

This means that a dan rank in aikido (in particular the high ones) reflects only the degree to which the teacher trusts and respects their student who holds said rank relative to all his other students.

All that the Dan grades in Aikido Yuishinkai or any other organisation represent is the esteem someone is held in by their teacher, they are not an objective, neutral measure of ability as their is no way to do this in a rigorous and impartial way. If Maruyama Sensei awards them it is because he holds that person in high enough regard to do so and after a lifetime of study with O Sensei and Koichi Tohei he is entitled to his opions as far as I'm concerned.

Sincerely

Mike Haft

[Dave Humm]

All that the Dan grades in Aikido Yuishinkai or any other organisation represent is the esteem someone is held in by their teacher, they are not an objective, neutral measure of ability as their is no way to do this in a rigorous and impartial way. If Maruyama Sensei awards them it is because he holds that person in high enough regard to do so and after a lifetime of study with O Sensei and Koichi Tohei he is entitled to his opions as far as I'm concerned.

I have to disagree on this point.

Every single dan grade I have witnessed has been based upon merit - pass or fail. They have been earned, not awarded. Whilst I hold the opinion that one organisation's dan grade may well be considered another organisation's kyu grade and, to quote your words; there may not be an objective, neutral measure of ability between the many organisations which exist in the UK (over 40 associated with the BAB, and many more outside that umbrella), perhaps that topic should be reserved for another debate.

If we're talking about grades say rokudan and above where certification is issued for reasons other than physical ability, then I would be in agreement with you however, and I do hold this particular opinion quite strongly, just because they're Japanese doesn't mean everything they say or do, is right. Lineage, although a key ingredient does not always guarantee quality. Japanese individuals are just as suseptable to the evils of politics, ego and internal gratification as anyone else.

Regards as always

[Mike_Haft]

I have to disagree on this point.

Every single dan grade I have witnessed has been based upon merit - pass or fail. They have been earned, not awarded.

If we're talking about grades say rokudan and above where certification is issued for reasons other than physical ability, then I would be in agreement with you however, and I do hold this particular opinion quite strongly, just because they're Japanese doesn't mean everything they say or do, is right. Lineage, although a key ingredient does not always guarantee quality. Japanese individuals are just as suseptable to the evils of politics, ego and internal gratification as anyone else.

Regards as always

I don't think that we really disagree on this issue Dave, I agree with you re: the 'Just because they're Japanese' issue, but in this case I think that Maruyama Sensei's credentials are quite clear.
Re: "Every single dan grade I have witnessed has been based upon merit - pass or fail. They have been earned, not awarded. If we're talking about grades say rokudan and above where certification is issued for reasons other than physical ability, then I would be in agreement with you"

I believe 7th Dan is above 6th Dan last time I checked

As you say 'based upon merit - pass or fail'. I'm at a loss to determine how you can read Maruyama Sensei's mind and assess what he views as 'merit'. Or perhaps you've spoken to him about this in person or through correspondance?
With regards to whether it has been earned or not, in Geoff Sensei's particular case I happen to think that working full time as a proffessional Aikido teacher since 1987 and basically deciding it was worth living on a rather low wage to do it is one of many perfectly valid measures of dedication and hard work, I would say that recogniton of that hard work is one way it might have been earnt. I doubt that Maruyama Sensei really needs to physically assess Flather Sensei's abilities to determine him worthy of recognition (I don't doubt that Geoff would be happy to do this if he were asked to by Maruyama Sensei, but until Maruyama Sensei does so I'm not going to disagree or argue with his judgement on the matter... I'm definitely not going to argue with him!)

I do however think that you're quite right that this is sliding into a different discussion. My original comments were soley for the support of my teacher who I respect regardless of whether some japanese guy gave him a piece of paper with the number 7 on it or not.

Sincerely,

Mike Haft

[Andy Crowe]

Andy,
I'd be interested to hear from you the names of the other British aikidoka (if any) which you've trained with which were 7th dan.

Hi Dave

I have trained with Wasyl Kolesnikov Sensei (Ki Aikido 6th Dan) and have attended a seminar (the Kenshiro Abbe Sensei jubilee celebration) at which training was given by Foster Sensei, Ellis Sensei, Reynolds Sensei and Eastman Sensei (all of which are high ranking Aikikai Sensei).

Geoff Flather Sensei also attended this seminar as a participant and he was invited to an after seminar meal with other Sensei and organizers. I can only presume that this would not have occurred if he was, in some way, seen to be undeserving of the grade awarded to him by Maruyama Sensei.

As my post indicated, I have also studied Jiu Jitsu (Juko Ryu) albeit many years ago. During this time I trained on a few occassions with both Clark Sensei (who was a 7th Dan) and Morris Sensei (who was a 6th Dan) at the time.

I hope this answers your question Dave.

I would also like to use this post to hopefully clear up some assertions made by other forum members with regard to Geoff Flather Sensei, Banyu Hatten Aikido, and Aikido Yuishinkai.

With regards to the comments made about the presumed 'cultiness' of both Banyu Hatten and Aikido Yuishinkai, I can only state the following:

1) The motto developed by Maruyama Sensei is not compulsory for any Banyu Hatten students. Whilst some students may choose to recite it, I personally don't and have never been told to by either Geoff Flather Sensei or any other member of Banyu Hatten

2) Maruyama Sensei states on the Yuishinkai website ( http://www.aikidoyuishinkai.com/maruyama.htm ) that he encourages students to read the motto 'aloud each morning and night to keep your subconscious in a positive state of mind'. He does not demand that this is done (which one would expect if Aikido Yuishinkai were a cult).

3) It should be borne in mind that Maruyama spent many years in a Zen Buddhist monastery. That he produced a motto and encourages others to recite it is not inconsistent with practices within Japanese Buddhism - to imply that this means that anyone reading such a motto is engaging in cult-like behaviour misunderstands both the meaning of what a cult actually is and the compassionate nature of Buddhist thought and practice.

4) As it clearly states on the Banyu Hatten website ( http://bhaikido.awardspace.co.uk/bio/geoffsensei.html ) Geoff Flather Sensei describes himself as a Christian Chaplain. It is my understanding that Geoff is an ordained Minister (from within the C of E tradition). All I can say further on the issue is that Geoff does not seek to proselytize his Chrsitian views to students. I am of an atheist persausion (despite being baptised as a Catholic as a child and having an academic interest in Buddhism, Hinduism and New Religious Movements), and would (as I have already done in my Aikido career) rather practice elsewhere than be forced to share the same religious or quasi-religious views of my Sensei.


In terms of the warning placed on the Banyu Hatten website:

'BEWARE! - Some other martial arts are more singular in their aims, due to
commercialism entering the martial arts in the 1970s. This will mean you
have to exercise great care and caution in your choice of Martial Art'.

I believe that this not only reflects Geoff Flather Sensei's view on martial arts but also serves as a commentary both on a situation which occurred recently and was reported in the local paper whereby a franchised Tae Kwon Do class closed after childrens parents had paid what was reported to be hundred of pounds to the instructor who appeared to be unable to deliver his side of the contract (i.e. to teach or arrange for another instructor to teach students who had had their tuition fees prepaid by their parents), and the activities of some other Martial Arts organizations in the local area who seek to charge exorbitant prices (e.g. approximately £100 for beginners to become members of their association, recieve a 'free' uniform, and then be asked to purchase safety pads etc. from the same organization (despite identical equipment being sold at significantly cheaper prices elsewhere) because of so-called 'health and safety' reasons), to their members.

Geoff, for example, charges £5 for a two hour session and makes significant reductions for either students or unwaged people - at one club which takes place in a residential training college for people with physical, emotional and/or learning disabilities he charges students £1 for a two hour session as he is aware that their income consisits of meagre state benefits.

Membership of Banyu Hatten (which also includes insurance) is in the region of £20 to £25 per year.

This is, of course, further evidence that Banyu Hatten is not a cult as one would expect a cult to charge significantly higher charges both for membership and mat fees.

I believe that the above gives a true account of Geoff Flather Sensei's humanity, good character and humility.

If anyone is unhappy of Geoff Flather Sensei being awarded a 7th Dan by Maruyama Sensei, I would ask that they either contact Maruyama Sensei and ask him the reasons why he made the award of 7th Dan, or alternatively, come and attend one of his classes and make up your own mind.

This, surely, would be preferable to character assasination based either upon the contents of the Banyu Hatten website or the number of high grade Aikido practitioners in the UK.

Best wishes

Andy Crowe

[Dave Humm]

I believe 7th Dan is above 6th Dan last time I checked

.. ?? I wasn't stating otherwise .. "if were talking rokudan and above" so you've lost me with your comment. Indeed I was actually agreeing with you on one particular point of view

As you say 'based upon merit - pass or fail'. I'm at a loss to determine how you can read Maruyama Sensei's mind and assess what he views as 'merit'. Or perhaps you've spoken to him about this in person or through correspondance?

Why would you think I was specifically refering to Mr. Flather's grades or anyone else from within his organisation ? I was speaking about my own experiences from within the organisation I belong where people have physically taken an examination and either passed or failed on their merits, my statement had nothing to do with Mr. Flather or Mr. Maruyama, but then I went on to actually AGREE with your point of view about grades issued for reasons other than ability; so I'm really at a loss to understand the point of your retort ?

...With regards to whether it has been earned or not, in Geoff Sensei's particular case I happen to think that working full time as a proffessional Aikido teacher since 1987 and basically deciding it was worth living on a rather low wage to do it is one of many perfectly valid measures of dedication and hard work, I would say that recogniton of that hard work is one way it might have been earnt. I doubt that Maruyama Sensei really needs to physically assess Flather Sensei's abilities to determine him worthy of recognition (I don't doubt that Geoff would be happy to do this if he were asked to by Maruyama Sensei, but until Maruyama Sensei does so I'm not going to disagree or argue with his judgement on the matter... I'm definitely not going to argue with him!)

See my last statement.

[Dave Humm]

Hi Dave

I have trained with Wasyl Kolesnikov Sensei (Ki Aikido 6th Dan) and have attended a seminar (the Kenshiro Abbe Sensei jubilee celebration) at which training was given by Foster Sensei, Ellis Sensei, Reynolds Sensei and Eastman Sensei (all of which are high ranking Aikikai Sensei).

Geoff Flather Sensei also attended this seminar as a participant and he was invited to an after seminar meal with other Sensei and organizers. I can only presume that this would not have occurred if he was, in some way, seen to be undeserving of the grade awarded to him by Maruyama Sensei.

Andy, I was one of the six organisers for that seminar, I know who Geoff Flather is and I was part of the decision making process which resulted in him and others being invited.

And this is an important bit... I'm not questioning Mr. Flather's grades

[Mike_Haft]

but then I went on to actually AGREE with your point of view about grades issued

Sorru about that, easy to do when someone (not you) has said less than pleasant things about your teacher

I hope I didn't cause too much irritation.

Regards,

Mike

[Andy Crowe]

And this is an important bit... I'm not questioning Mr. Flather's grades

Thanks for clarifying that Dave.

Please accept my apologies for misreading the intention of your reply to my original posting.

Best wishes


Andy Crowe



(Moderator: Is there any chance of closing this topic down and removing it from the system as some of the things said about both Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei and Geoff Flather Sensei within this forum could be considered to be potentially libellous? )

[P Goldsbury]

Hello,

I am in Europe at the moment and do not have regular access to a computer.

I have looked over the thread but have not had the time to examine all the posts in detail. I think a line can be drawn between making (potentially) libellous statements and raising questions with respect and in good faith about lineage and credentials in the martial arts. I am not yet convinced that this line has been crossed and so for the time being the thead is kept open.

I will be back home in Japan on August 16, when I will have the time to look at the thread more carefully.

In the meantime, I ask posters to be mindful of the rules of this forum, especially the rule about treating one's fellow budoka with respect. It is
possible to do this this and still ask sharp questions.

Best wishes to all,

[Mike_Haft]

Dear Peter Goldsbury,

I don't think there is anything here that could properly be called libellous, what we have here is mostly a collection of impolite and ill judged questions/comments and the responses they have prompted by people such as myself.

Questions concerning rank and lineage are legitimate, its not the questions but the manner in which they are asked unfortunately.

In this case I would simply say that there are some people here who are impolite and ill mannered rather than libellous.

It might however be worth locking the topic seeing as it seems all questions concerning Geoff Flather Sensei that have been asked seem now to have been answered and further discussion only has the potential to create further unpleasantness.

Sincerely

Mike Haft

[Paddy Power]

Originally Posted by Mike Haft

Until 2004 Geoff has never claimed any rank other than 2nd Dan

A polite question not intended to create unpleasantness:

Are you saying that this gentleman had gone from 2nd Dan to 7th Dan in 2 years and without grading?

Without casting any aspersions on a person I don't know, nor doubting the teacher that awarded the 7th Dan, it does seem a tad faster than usual.

Yours Respectfully,

(1st Dan after 5 years)